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Author Topic: Dawlish Avoiding Line - ongoing discussion, merged topic  (Read 175546 times)
trainbuff
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« Reply #105 on: February 10, 2014, 18:47:16 »

And with this proposed alternative route the entire population of Torbay are resigned to replacement buses when there are future problems on the sea wall section.

The approach described in other threads on this subject need to be  followed.
1. Dawlish Sea Wall repaired
2. An emergency or alternative route needs to be opened sooner rather than later. Meldon-Bere Alston (or Tavistock) would be the easiest and quickest way of fulfilling this in the medium term.
3. All mainline services to remain on the Dawlish route unless the Wall is Closed.
4. An Alternative Dawlish Avoiding Line built inland needs to be considered in the longer term future when the Sea Wall is closed too often. Studies by the local councils' in the South West (including Torbay) indicate by 2060 at the latest. Maybe we should be thinking of 2040 or sooner if it can be done.

The entire population of Torbay (according to the 2011 census) is 131,000. The population of Plymouth at the same census is 256,400 and that of Cornwall is 532,300. Some 650,000 more people. Additionally, many people from North and Mid Devon and Cornwall would now have much nearer access to rail lines if the LSWR (London South Western Railway) route was reopened. Notably Bude, Holsworthy and Launceston.

The residents of Torbay would of course be able to get to Exeter via bus. The SAME as they do now when the Sea Wall is closed. But at least Plymouth and Cornwall (and even Torbay, though by a much longer route), would still be connected to the rest of the country by rail. Saving businesses millions of pounds. At the moment estimates of losses are in the order of hundreds of millions to business.

Although there is not much freight west of Exeter it is foolhardy to think that while the line is closed that it wont be tempting for businesses to look at road haulage as an option.And if connectivity can be much more certain then perhaps more freight will use the railways.

It has been mentioned that the Okehampton route would be susceptible to heavy snow and blizzards. Over the last few years the Railways have kept running even in conditions where roads become very dangerous and blocked. The trains may well have been late but they did run. Many of the routes in the North are high and susceptible to snowfall much more often than in this part of the country. Even Dartmoor. It would in truth take major winter storms to close both routes and in these circumstances it is likely that roads would be impassable also.

The advantage of the Moorland route is that it is largely still in situ. Many of the major structures still exist. I believe that the line between Coleford Junction and Meldon is owned by the  Meldon Quarry owners. Last I heard this was put up for sale for ^5million in October 2012. The Dartmoor Railway do NOT own it. Surely a bargain price for Network Rail.

The reason that SWT (South West Trains) do not serve Plymouth is that with the addition of the passing loop at Axminster and creating more frequent services there is a lack of stock. Not enough to cover this extra hour down and back to Plymouth. With cascades of stock there will be more available.

I am all for the main line remaining in South Devon it does serve more people. But we must be pragmatic.

Longer term the line from Exeter to Waterloo should be upgraded giving passengers in Devon and Cornwall a real choice of railway companies to take them to London.



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exeterkiwi
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« Reply #106 on: February 10, 2014, 18:57:06 »

I noticed on another rail forum  RailUKforum that there is a picture of the DAL proposed route


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« Reply #107 on: February 10, 2014, 19:32:23 »

Many structures were still in situ on the Waverley route in Scotland. All were replaced to comply with modern standards. Rebuilding a closed route is not just about slapping track back on top. Land has to be purchased including compulsory purchase orders. Major civil engineering has to take place. Modern signalling systems have to be installed. Topography of the closed line suggests sustained higher speed running wouldn't be possible without building new sections of line. I think the cost difference between re-building the LSWR (London South Western Railway) route and a building a new inland route would be marginal.

It seems folly to me to suggest spending money on Okehampton - Tavistock and then later build an inland route. Plan and build the inland route now. Journey times would be quicker to Plymouth and Cornwall. Torbay would not be reliant on a fair weather railway. There are also businesses in Torbay. Just because the residents of Torbay have to use replacement road transport now when there are sea wall problems doesn't mean they should have to in the future. Torquay is the third largest settlement in Devon.

There's also the population of the South Hams to consider. Their railhead at Totnes would also lose out when long distance services are diverted via the LSWR route. That's another 83,000 people who lose access to a decent rail service when there are sea wall problems. Given the choice, what would South Hams residents prefer? A quicker more direct route to Exeter and beyond, or a journey that heads the wrong way to Plymouth initially, then takes a slow circuitous route through Tavistock and Okehampton?

Also, would the population of Plymouth and Cornwall, given the choice, prefer a quicker journey, or a sedate meander around the north of Dartmoor, reversing twice on their way to London?
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« Reply #108 on: February 10, 2014, 19:47:43 »

I doubt very much that the Exec Board of NR» (Network Rail - home page) have given much thought to a diversionary route around Dawlish other than "its something to look at" they have currently major disruption due to flooding in the Thames Valley to one principle route (GWML (Great Western Main Line)) to another major line (Windsor - Staines) on top of the sea wall destruction at Dawlish and the Somerset Levels flooding.

So all the speculation "the route has been decided" is just that speculation they need political commitment first ie who is going to pay
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« Reply #109 on: February 10, 2014, 20:39:33 »

Could it be that, paradoxically, the recent events could even have reduced the likelihood of an inland route being implemented? Up to now, the impression, at least to the general public, seems to have been that an inland route would allow the operators to simply abandon services along the sea wall when a storm blows up, and to resume them when it dies down. Now that we are no longer talking simply about water damaging the train mechanism for a period, but about the destruction of the coastline itself, railway or no railway, perhaps the measures necessary to protect that coastline, e.g. a breakwater, would have the side-effect of reducing the exposure of trains to the spray that causes the less dramatic but more regular problems?
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« Reply #110 on: February 10, 2014, 20:42:05 »

Many structures were still in situ on the Waverley route in Scotland. All were replaced to comply with modern standards.

Untrue. Most structures are being refurbished, and some have needed little more than repointing or repainting. That's not to underestimate the size of the task.
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« Reply #111 on: February 10, 2014, 21:09:55 »

Apologies there. A proof reading error on my part before posting. I had meant to say that, All were replaced or refurbished to comply with modern standards. Present rather than past tense would've been better as well.

I have looked, many times, at the Borders Railway website to see what they are rebuilding or refurbishing. The engineering drawings do indeed show the scale of the task.

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« Reply #112 on: February 10, 2014, 21:37:28 »

Apologies if I rather jumped on your typo.  Smiley

I too am a very regular visitor to the Borders Railway website, and my enthusiasm for that project is almost unbridled. I drove down from Edinburgh to Hawick just before they started work (well, actually I got Mrs Squirrel to drive so that I could rubberneck) and I know first-hand what a beautiful part of Britain it is going to open up. It will be a real treat when it opens.

Why 'almost unbridled?'

  • It doesn't go all the way to Carlisle;
  • It's too far away for me to pop out and watch the progress Sad .

But back to the positives - it shows what can be done if there's a will, and (though I know not everyone agrees with me here) it gives a very good benchmark price for a large-scale reopening project.



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« Reply #113 on: February 11, 2014, 10:15:03 »

And with this proposed alternative route the entire population of Torbay are resigned to replacement buses when there are future problems on the sea wall section.

That is a danger. 

But, I would hope that with an alternative route in place, the sea wall route can be closed temporality but long enough for it to be properly rebuilt rather than just repaired.   Currently it looks surprisingly flimsy and it is to NR» (Network Rail - home page)'s credit in patching it up promptly that is hasn't failed before.  It needs to be replaced with something more substantial whether or not trains are running over the top of it or not in order to protect the town behind it.   
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« Reply #114 on: February 11, 2014, 10:27:46 »

The alternative route would take *years* to construct - it won't happen anytime soon.
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« Reply #115 on: February 11, 2014, 11:40:39 »

Errrr............ http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/2014/02/11-network-rail-denies-dawlish-plan.html

All hopes dashed in less than 24 hours?!
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« Reply #116 on: February 11, 2014, 11:45:19 »

Probably - I though t everyone was jumping a bit quick.
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« Reply #117 on: February 11, 2014, 12:31:50 »

Errrr............ http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/2014/02/11-network-rail-denies-dawlish-plan.html

All hopes dashed in less than 24 hours?!
Probably - I though t everyone was jumping a bit quick.

Network Rail operates very fast infrastructure .............. decision making is not so fast.

NR» (Network Rail - home page) will want time to talk to all the local stake holders to seek out the most viable and cost effective route, if there is one.  Then it needs to be funded my guess we are looking at end of 2016 before any proposal is put forward and 2019 before any work starts so looking at 2021 or later before any trains run on a new route
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« Reply #118 on: February 11, 2014, 12:33:27 »

At the earliest.
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« Reply #119 on: February 11, 2014, 12:43:56 »

Just out of interest, what do you reckon those timescales would look like if we still had BR (British Rail(ways))?
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