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Author Topic: Slack  (Read 17037 times)
John R
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« Reply #45 on: March 15, 2009, 22:28:03 »

Typically down services ex Padd wait 3 minutes at Swindon, a couple at Chippenham, maybe 3 minutes at Bath Spa, and still roll into Temple Meads 4 minutes early.

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Ollie
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« Reply #46 on: March 16, 2009, 10:41:10 »

On the subject of slack, I used the Brizzle-Paddington line last weekend and the train arrived at Paddington over 5 minutes early, in just 24 minutes from Reading. On the return the train was 10 minutes late leaving Reading due to engine problems and we were informed the train would not exceed 100mph as a result. Even then, it was only 6 minutes late into Bristol. I suspect this might be a result of the fines incurred for late running.
Late night and weekend services tend to have more time built into the journey so that NR» (Network Rail - home page) can take last minute possessions at various points, such as main line between Reading and Slough.
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thetrout
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« Reply #47 on: March 16, 2009, 12:13:51 »

Not FGW (First Great Western) related, but some of the XC (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) services from Bristol - Birmingham N S have a "catch up" time because of the congestion in Birmingham New Street. Sometimes you can go straight through into Birmingham N S, other times, painfully slow stop, start, stop, start running is the order of the day! Lips sealed
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Grin Grin Grin Grin
Ollie
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« Reply #48 on: March 16, 2009, 23:44:26 »

Not FGW (First Great Western) related, but some of the XC (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) services from Bristol - Birmingham N S have a "catch up" time because of the congestion in Birmingham New Street. Sometimes you can go straight through into Birmingham N S, other times, painfully slow stop, start, stop, start running is the order of the day! Lips sealed

Funny you mention that as I saw a XC service from Birmingham NS to Stanstead Airport, left about Birmingham about 15 late and arrive Stanstead about 3 early.
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Chris from Nailsea
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« Reply #49 on: March 17, 2009, 22:27:56 »

My manager travelled down to Bristol Temple Meads from Manchester Piccadilly via Birmingham New Street today - train arrived at Birmingham 10 minutes late, but left on time (and thus arrived in Bristol on time) due to the useful 20 minutes 'padding' in the XC (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) timetable at Birmingham!

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r james
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« Reply #50 on: March 17, 2009, 23:23:19 »

SO to that note....do we agree that until any changes to infrastructure are made to birmingham new street... that padding is indeed a good thing?
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eightf48544
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« Reply #51 on: March 18, 2009, 10:06:25 »

SO to that note....do we agree that until any changes to infrastructure are made to birmingham new street... that padding is indeed a good thing?

A very interesting question. my initial thought is no because slack leads to slackness.

However, I do think that more analysis is needed as to why say XC (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) feel they need 20 minutes slack at Birmingham New Street similarly the excessive station stops on the Cotswold line.

Is it just  lack of infrastructure and/or failures, or is it mixture of excessive TSRs (Temporary Speed Restriction), train failures (loss of engine hence speed),  bad regulation at junctions, late starts, poor station work?

Unless this very detailed analysis is done then  adding slack helps keep trains seemingly punctual but doesn't actually solve the original problem which is; why do trains run late? Until you know the cause of delays for almost every train then adding slack is an easy option.

It's also relatively easy to do and does improve TOCs (Train Operating Company) punctuality statistics, however ,I don't believe it's the way to run an efficient railway. Features of which I feel is to get people from A to B in the shortest possible time, on time, every time and with a seat!

So I can see why TOCs do it, especialy as they are punished for late running.

I believe in Virgin's time a trial was held to give the Aberdeen Penzance priority at choke points like Birmingham even if was out of path. I understand this led to a dramatic increase in on time arrivals at Penzance. With little knock on effect to other services. Of course with the current system, knock on effects are counted against the TOC causing them so it's easier to have one train running very late rather than get it through and possibly back near to time than possibly delay several other trains a few minutes each.

Basically if you want an efficient railway, bring back the "Fat Controller" who is in charge of everything between that happens between the boundary fences.

 

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bemmy
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« Reply #52 on: March 18, 2009, 10:28:38 »

It's also relatively easy to do and does improve TOCs (Train Operating Company) punctuality statistics,
You've answered your own question. It's a way of improving statistics that costs nothing, so of course it's first choice for TOCs and government alike.

Quote
however ,I don't believe it's the way to run an efficient railway. Features of which I feel is to get people from A to B in the shortest possible time, on time, every time and with a seat!
Unfortunately not. As long as the statistics look good, then everything is fine with the railways in the eyes of the people who matter, who don't travel by train.

We've got record punctuality remember, with more trains running on time* than since records began**!

* on time means arriving at their final destination less than 10 minutes late, never mind if you were over an hour late at Birmingham, your train was "on time" reaching Aberdeen.
** records began in 1995, no-one had a clue what was going on during the previous 165 years.
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willc
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« Reply #53 on: March 18, 2009, 11:01:10 »

On FGW (First Great Western) 10 minutes is the 'on time' mark for High Speed Services - including the Cotswold Line - and Cardiff-Portsmouth, for all other service groups it is five minutes.
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Super Guard
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« Reply #54 on: March 18, 2009, 11:02:27 »

no-one had a clue what was going on during the previous 165 years.[/size]

In regards to stats or just in general?  Grin Grin
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eightf48544
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« Reply #55 on: March 18, 2009, 11:13:33 »

no-one had a clue what was going on during the previous 165 years.[/size]

In regards to stats or just in general?  Grin Grin


BR (British Rail(ways)) kept very extensive puntuality stats these were reported to BR HQ (Headquarters) every day. There were even league tables for the various regions and divisons within the regions.

On the Southern it was 3 minutes and your late. Any train that persistantly ran late would be thoroughly analysed and either instructions given to give it priority or in some case for it to retimed to fit in better, but only by a few minutes. But then again the Southern ran trains on lines with 25 yard overlaps from signals and could get trains across junctions within a minute or so of each other.
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bemmy
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« Reply #56 on: March 18, 2009, 11:41:13 »

no-one had a clue what was going on during the previous 165 years.[/size]

In regards to stats or just in general?  Grin Grin


BR (British Rail(ways)) kept very extensive puntuality stats these were reported to BR HQ (Headquarters) every day. There were even league tables for the various regions and divisons within the regions.

On the Southern it was 3 minutes and your late. Any train that persistantly ran late would be thoroughly analysed and either instructions given to give it priority or in some case for it to retimed to fit in better, but only by a few minutes. But then again the Southern ran trains on lines with 25 yard overlaps from signals and could get trains across junctions within a minute or so of each other.
Funny, because according to the government and TOC (Train Operating Company)'s, there were no records before 1995.....
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paul7575
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« Reply #57 on: March 18, 2009, 12:34:42 »

However, I do think that more analysis is needed as to why say XC (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) feel they need 20 minutes slack at Birmingham New Street...

I think the long dwell on certain XC services at New St is more to do with ensuring the 2 tph on the different 'legs' of the service are as near as possible half an hour apart, eg New St - Man Picc requires the trains from either Bristol or Bournemouth to be half an hour apart on leaving New St; New St - Reading needs trains from Man Picc or Newcastle to be coordinated.  Presumably to get rid of the waiting times too many trains would have to be completely retimed from their start point, which might not fit in with other operator's services?

Paul
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r james
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« Reply #58 on: March 18, 2009, 20:08:18 »

I imagine there is an element of the issue as discussed above, that it basically helps to create a clock face timetable,with trains departing exactly half hour apart etc. 

I often wonder if Virgin has of maintained the franchise.... and indeed a lot more of their operation princess services....would the network have had much shorter journey times?  Even 10 mins shaved off would have been a bonus.
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Btline
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« Reply #59 on: March 18, 2009, 21:09:03 »

I must admit, XC (Cross Country Trains (franchise))'s 20 minute padding at New Street IS required. (it's not really padding - it is to path efficiently at New Street)

The real solution is to remove the bottleneck of 12 tracks converging to just 4 before the platforms.

If all XC's trains were given priority, LM (London Midland - recent franchise) services would be thrown into turmoil.
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