Slack

[whole diary]

[Btline]

I hate slack. Others do, others don't.

But when I read that the W&S^▸ (Wrexham and Shropshire (Open Access Operator)) first train made up 30 mins, I was surprised!

Is this the most amount of slack in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom)?

Does anyone know what the worst is? I would guess the XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) from Penzance to Dundee must have a lot...

[devon_metro]

Get over it 

[swlines]

I hate slack. Others do, others don't.

But when I read that the W&S^▸ (Wrexham and Shropshire (Open Access Operator)) first train made up 30 mins, I was surprised!

Is this the most amount of slack in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom)?

Does anyone know what the worst is? I would guess the XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) from Penzance to Dundee must have a lot...

I think it's more due to the crap path that WSMR^▸ (Wrexham, Shropshire and Marylebone Railway) have rather than booked padding time.

But yeah, slack is here to stay however much we dislike it. As Liam says, get over it.

[willc]

Wrexham & Shropshire timings do have a lot of slack between Banbury and London, because there is effectively nowhere for trains to overtake on the Chiltern route, so W&S^▸ (Wrexham and Shropshire (Open Access Operator)) speeds are affected by what's running in front of them.

I gather there are discussions going on between Network Rail, Chiltern and W&S about the possibility of putting in some loops to allow overtaking and add flexibility - there is space between the existing tracks at several stations, as there used to be through lines for expresses all along the GC^» (Great Central Railway - link to heritage line) & GW^▸ (Great Western) joint route.

Virgin are also using/going to use the line for the rest of the year for Voyager-operated diversions, to keep some sort of service running out of Euston when Rugby or Milton Keynes are blockaded for further West Coast upgrade work, but any new loops will come too late for them. The extra signal sections Chiltern has added in recent years are really paying off now in capacity terms.

[swlines]

Wrexham & Shropshire timings do have a lot of slack between Banbury and London, because there is effectively nowhere for trains to overtake on the Chiltern route, so W&S^▸ (Wrexham and Shropshire (Open Access Operator)) speeds are affected by what's running in front of them.

The slack Btline is referring to is the slack between Tame Bridge Parkway and Banbury - which really is as a result of the crap pathing around Birmingham available...

[willc]

The slack Btline is referring to is the slack between Tame Bridge Parkway and Banbury - which really is as a result of the crap pathing around Birmingham available...

But there's plenty south of Banbury too and that train on the first day was assisted by that too. Any time cuts are far more likely on the Chiltern Line proper than around Birmingham, so long as W&S^▸ (Wrexham and Shropshire (Open Access Operator)) has to use convoluted routing through the West Midlands.

[12hoursunday]

Just a small comment but what has the Wrexham & Shropshire got to do First Great Western

[Lee]

Just a small comment but what has the Wrexham & Shropshire got to do First Great Western

It has relevance to Banbury, and has been discussed on the forum before (link below.)
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=2361.msg17674#msg17674

[eightf48544]

Just a small comment but what has the Wrexham & Shropshire got to do First Great Western

As well as Lee's comment it also shows the busmen of First how to run a railway.

[eightf48544]

I hate slack. Others do, others don't.

But when I read that the W&S^▸ (Wrexham and Shropshire (Open Access Operator)) first train made up 30 mins, I was surprised!

Is this the most amount of slack in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom)?

Does anyone know what the worst is? I would guess the XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) from Penzance to Dundee must have a lot...

Slack aquaints to cowardice by the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) after the experience of Hatfield and Railtrack.s general incompetance and the resulting drop in performance, they decreed like Mussolini that the trains should run on time.

However whereas BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) could run a train non stop from Bath to Reading in 40 minutes the current indfrastructure is so poor both signals and track that such a timing is considered unworkable today. So odd minutes creep into the running times. this leads to complancency on the part of the staff at stations despatching trains, signalmen, we can hold him he's plenty of slack. As for the poor drivers it must be terribly boring just ambling  along trying not to run early.

So the whole thing becomes counterproductive.

If the railway is to work it must be run briskly so that everyone is on their toes and keeps the system moving even if it does mean blowing whistles at gentlemen from Newbury changing trains at Reading. (Gerry Fienes "I tried to run a Railway" still one the finest railway books ever written)

[r james]

It seems to be only virgin, and the odd other new franchise operator who seem intrested in pushing for faster trains. 

[eightf48544]

It seems to be only virgin, and the odd other new franchise operator who seem intrested in pushing for faster trains. 

Who's behind Virgin? Chris Green, enough said. A railwayman not a busman.

[Super Guard]

So odd minutes creep into the running times. this leads to complancency on the part of the staff at stations despatching trains, signalmen, we can hold him he's plenty of slack. As for the poor drivers it must be terribly boring just ambling  along trying not to run early.

Trust me, you wouldn't make comments like that if you knew some of the grief we get if we despatch even a minute late without good reason.  I'll remember to put "He's got plenty of slack" down as a reason on my delay sheet next time and see what response I get from control    Don't worry though, I have a spare violin to play for those poor drivers who turn up early  

Here's some questions.

1.  Have you ever been in a signal box?  Yes they make the odd mistake (as in 'they really should have let that other one go there' etc.), but please realise that your train is not the only one under their control, and having visited both Bristol & Exeter Signal Panels, there is a lot going on, and a lot of decisions of course take account of knock-on effects and reducing delays of other services too.

2.  The complacent despatch staff.  Is it a case of everyone is on board and they are sitting twiddling their thumbs, or could it possibly be because they are having to run down the platform encouraging passengers to use both doors to a coach (that one still baffles me), put cigarettes out, assisting with disabled passengers on/off trains, answering incoming passengers questions who are far too busy to wait for the train to be despatched, ensuring that all of your HST^▸ (High Speed Train) doors are closed so we don't have to declare an emergency and bring your train to a halt later on, which of course puts our job in jeapardy?

I don't deny that there are no doubt lazy staff working for FGW^▸ (First Great Western)/XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise))/SWT^▸ (South West Trains)/whoever, but the same goes for every industry/company, and mass generalisations of signalmen/despatch staff as part of the reasoning for 'slack' is poor form IMO^▸ (in my opinion).  Many of us work damn hard to make sure our trains get out on-time, and there are plenty of factors (some I am not prepared to voice in public) that could be corrected to keep things moving quicker.

My personal opinion, I would rather there was less slack, or at least 'Slack reduction' targets to get things more efficient, as a happy public makes our life a lot easier!

[eightf48544]

Yep many on the Central divison of the Southern.

And yep we weren't perfect, I got a right bollocking for not ensuring a particular Victoria Brighton went right line at East Croydon to ensure it went Quarry. We Gloucester Road kept it moving and routed it on the wrong line through East Croydon as we had a down ex london Bridge crossing the junction and didn't want to delay teh ex Victoria. Assumming it could cross at South Croydon and go quarry line from there. Only to discover too late that South Croydon's crossover was out of use. So it ran Redhill behind the stopper and was quite late into Brighton.

Ironic because I was in the box  on a punctuality drive and had we stopped it at Selhurst to let the London Bridge through it would have gone quarry and probably with a bit of wellie from the driver been roughly on time in Brighton because there was a culture of making up time if possible.

Also we stopped the job at Sutton one morning terminating an Epsom Downs train in platform 4 to run it back to Town. On controls instruction I might add. On setting the road right acoss the East Junction to the Hackbridge line, the box couldn't get the point signal detection it was a frosty morning and the signal wires had contracted so the detector didn't aline.

Fortunately we had resident S&T^▸ (Signalling and Telegraph) technians around who quickly sorted it out with a hammer. But we still had at least 4 late trains outside the station to be sorted out so I know how one thing can lead to another.

I don't where I saw it but there was a letter I think in one of the magazines that pointed out, how if there is too much slack in the timetable plus the late time measurement it makes regulation at junctions very difficult if a train can arrive  at anytime in  a 30 minute slot,   depending on how it's running that day and yet still be on time. So does the signalman hold all trains across the junction for up to 30 minutes or risk running them across and maybe checking the fast. If there's little or no slack then it's either on time or late and the signalman can regulate accordingly to minimise the delays.

So yep SDA I know what goes on. All our commuters did try and get on at the front and we had to blow whistles at them but by and large they were prety slick and they closed the doors behind them so even at Sutton we could do 30 second stops.

But in those days we answered to one ultimate boss the Divisional Manager. The Central was always better than the South Western and South Eastern and all the other Regions. Except when I worked on the South Western when that was the best.  Some places carried this to the  extreme in Sheffield you were either Midland or Great Central. We regarded the Western as snobs.

Also I didn't use the word lazy I used complancency which is different. Even though we ran a pretty tight ship we used to get complacent because everything worked well that's when things slipped and then the whipped was cracked.

I don't see how you can run a railway when signalmen drivers and station staff all work for different bosses.

I blame Tom Windsor who thought you could run the railway by having very tight contracts and that the timetable was sacrosant and trains would run at the time stated and not in the order stated. Hence the stopper in front of late running fast.

[John R]

The slack Btline is referring to is the slack between Tame Bridge Parkway and Banbury - which really is as a result of the crap pathing around Birmingham available...

But there's plenty south of Banbury too and that train on the first day was assisted by that too. Any time cuts are far more likely on the Chiltern Line proper than around Birmingham, so long as W&S^▸ (Wrexham and Shropshire (Open Access Operator)) has to use convoluted routing through the West Midlands.

I believe the first train in has to follow a Stratford to London service making many stops. So if it's on time it has no slack. But if, running late, it presents itself at Banbury at an opportune moment, it can recover a fair amount of time just by virtue of now having a clear run.