Network Rail to consider Major New Rail Lines

[whole diary]

[devon_metro]

Let's take a step back from arguments about where high speed lines should go and whether or not political posturing is taking place.

Think of a figure for what a network of high speed lines will cost. Let's call it X billion.

Now think of the journeys that you make. Think of where the price of petrol is now, and where it may be in twenty years time. Think of what other pressures there may be on life in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom).

If you had X billion pounds to spend on transport - would Paddington-Temple Meads at 180mph be top of *your* priority list?

Considering the M4 is a major economic area, i'd say it was fairly high up the list!

[simonw]

Is a high speed network really needed?, or is a reliable high capacity network more appropriate?

I for one would be more than happy with a 125mph service, that didn't suffer the daily lottery of delays! The money should first be used to eliminate major network bottlenecks, and general track quality so that 125 trains can travel at that speed.

Whilst not wanting to prejudge any conclusions, it is unlikely that a high speed network will run a line into BTM^▸ (Bristol Temple Meads (strictly, it should be BRI)). A high speed network will have minimal stops and would terminate at Cardiff. Therefore BPW^» (Bristol Parkway - next trains) would be more likely the Bristol station for a high speed network. 

[willc]

My remarks were not aimed at anyone in the rail industry

This is a rail industry initiative, specifically a Network Rail initiative, but you said

Just more pre-election postering I think from a Government

It's nothing to do with DafT at this stage and Iain Coucher is looking long term anyway, not to whatever suits politicians in the run-up to an election.

Is a high speed network really needed?, or is a reliable high capacity network more appropriate?

The study will approach the issue from both directions. And if you actually look at what the genius of IK Brunel bequeathed us - a route that could be turned into a 125mph railway with precious little alteration in the 1970s - would fettling it up for 140mph (225kmh) be that much more difficult. Perhaps doing this, plus quadruple-tracking from Didcot to Swindon or on to Bristol Parkway, would be more cost-effective than taking a TGV^▸ (Train a Grande Vitesse)-type line alongside the M4 over the Downs to Swindon?

What would it cost? High Speed 1 was ^5 billion for 68 miles (St Pancras was ^800m on top), but that includes a lot of tunnelling under London and the Thames, which wasn't cheap - though the project was on time and on budget

LGV^▸ (Large Goods Vehicle) Est, the latest French TGV route, cost about 5.5 billion Euros (^4.35bn) for 300km (186 miles) of new line and work on stations and some of the connecting routes, eg electrification for TGV operation. Service speed for TGVs and the German ICEs using the line is 320kmh (198.8mph).

[IndustryInsider]

The study will approach the issue from both directions. And if you actually look at what the genius of IK Brunel bequeathed us - a route that could be turned into a 125mph railway with precious little alteration in the 1970s - would fettling it up for 140mph (225kmh) be that much more difficult. Perhaps doing this, plus quadruple-tracking from Didcot to Swindon or on to Bristol Parkway, would be more cost-effective than taking a TGV^▸ (Train a Grande Vitesse)-type line alongside the M4 over the Downs to Swindon?

I tend to agree, Will. I just can't see us ever having a purpose-built high speed line heading out west from London. I can see scope for a London to the Midlands, Manchester/Liverpool and maybe on to Glasgow/Edinburgh, but heading westwards the population centres it could serve are just not big enough in my opinion. Yes, you have big centres in Bristol, Cardiff, Exeter and Plymouth, but the topography of the land is not great (especially if anyone was thinking of extending it to Penzance), and suitable land would be at a premium.

There is scope for increasing the linespeed of the current track. It gets a bit twisty between Twyford and Goring, but otherwise it really is just the signalling that would stop higher speeds being possible in theory at least as far as Chippenham. Perhaps a 'double-green' LED aspect could be provided to give the appropriate braking distances where 4-aspect signalling is already in place?

[Btline]

To be honest, on the ECML^▸ (East Coast Main Line) and the GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line), it is a waste to build new lines.

Let's exploit the existing track to its full potential (obviously with capacity enhancements).

The problem with the UK^▸ (United Kingdom), is that the cities are too close together for true high speed running (unless you do London, Birmingham, Manchester, Glasgow non stop).

About signalling, install a blue light which would mean high speed running permitted.

[woody]

The study will approach the issue from both directions. And if you actually look at what the genius of IK Brunel bequeathed us - a route that could be turned into a 125mph railway with precious little alteration in the 1970s - would fettling it up for 140mph (225kmh) be that much more difficult. Perhaps doing this, plus quadruple-tracking from Didcot to Swindon or on to Bristol Parkway, would be more cost-effective than taking a TGV^▸ (Train a Grande Vitesse)-type line alongside the M4 over the Downs to Swindon?

I tend to agree, Will. I just can't see us ever having a purpose-built high speed line heading out west from London. I can see scope for a London to the Midlands, Manchester/Liverpool and maybe on to Glasgow/Edinburgh, but heading westwards the population centres it could serve are just not big enough in my opinion. Yes, you have big centres in Bristol, Cardiff, Exeter and Plymouth, but the topography of the land is not great (especially if anyone was thinking of extending it to Penzance), and suitable land would be at a premium.

There is scope for increasing the linespeed of the current track. It gets a bit twisty between Twyford and Goring, but otherwise it really is just the signalling that would stop higher speeds being possible in theory at least as far as Chippenham. Perhaps a 'double-green' LED aspect could be provided to give the appropriate braking distances where 4-aspect signalling is already in place?

Back in the 1930s the then Great Western Railway planned to bypass the sea wall rail route in South Devon using Government interest free loans to build a new inland rail route from Exeter involving a 2 mile tunnel through the Halden hills emerging near Newton Abbot.At that time rail traffic levels were such that a 4 track railway was required between Exeter and Newton Abbot but there was not enough space on the existing sea wall route to lay 2 extra lines hence the plans for an inland route.Land for the scheme was purchased and fenced off prior to construction starting only for the outbreak of War to stop the scheme.Further a new fast line was also surveyed at that time onward towards Plymouth to be built to a minimum 1 mile radius curvature from Newton Abbot bypassing Totnes and rejoining the existing rail route near Marley Head(South Brent). Today the cost of such improvements would be enormous so the idea of a high speed line(186mph) reaching this far south west is fanciful to say the least.That being said much of the rail route west of Newton Abbot to Plymouth and Cornwall with its 55/65mph line speeds is little more than a branch line really and any money available needs to be spent raising line speeds closer to current main line standards. Perhaps some relatively minor realignments of the existing route could be funded to at least allow a 20th century railway in these parts even if we never get a 21st century railway west of Exeter. 

[Phil]

Woody, that's brilliant. Thanks so much for taking the trouble to type in all that info - it was news to me, and much appreciated.

[woody]

Woody, that's brilliant. Thanks so much for taking the trouble to type in all that info - it was news to me, and much appreciated.

You may also find this link on the history of the railway at Dawlish of interest.http://www.greatcliff.co.uk/pages/railway_history.php

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

how did st davids miss the list?

london waterloo-yeovil-exeter st davids would be a good high speed line yes it needs doubling and some of the sections would need a third line as a passing place to get past slower stopping trains

[IndustryInsider]

how did st davids miss the list?

london waterloo-yeovil-exeter st davids would be a good high speed line yes it needs doubling and some of the sections would need a third line as a passing place to get past slower stopping trains

Do you mean as part of a high speed line from London-Cornwall, or just a link between London and Exeter? Exeter (pop. 120000) and Yeovil (42000) are nowhere near large enough centres to justify the costs that would be involved.

[swlines]

Now that Industry Insider has replied and I can make more sense of that post...

London - Exeter via Yeovil would be the best route for a direct high speed line between London and Cornwall, being the shorter route and therefore faster assuming they can get reasonably fast journey times out to Basingstoke which would be the primary issue, as rebuilding the SWML^▸ (South Western Mail Line) as far as Basingstoke would be far too cost prohibitive and cause absolute hell for Weymouth, Dorchester, Poole, Bournemouth, Southampton, Fareham and Winchester commuters.

[devon_metro]

I'd say a high speed line linking London, Heathrow, Reading, Bristol and Exeter would make more sence, as presumably, higher speeds could be reached and lots of commuting occurs from the south west towards Bristol, so there would be numerous flows along the route. This, unlike the Yeovil suggestion which would only really serve Basingstoke, salisbury, Yeovil and Exeter, making less money and being a less desirable route.

[swlines]

Stopping in London, Heathrow and then Reading is pointless as you'd reach top speed (186mph) just (give or take a minute) before having to start kicking in the brake - being really not very efficient at all.

[woody]

I agree with Devon Metro the only way a high speed rail route will ever reach Exeter is via Bristol perhaps a branch off a London/South Wales high speed route which would also benefit crosscountry.There are simply not enough large population centres away from the M4/M5 corridor to even begin to justify such major investment between London and the South West.

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

sorry i ment for a high speed link to cornwall tauntons not far atall from exeter yes ok ive started to think now bristol needs a high speed link...best of both worlds highspeed st davids to london... but go via yeovil town and castle cary... therethore ending up at paddington which means just convert bristol to castle cary to h/s