Pacer trains

[whole diary]

[northwesterntrains]

I'm not actually from the south west, although I have used trains in the South West previously.  It's my impression that while First Great Western are not providing even a medium quality services, that First Great Western customers have misconceptions about rail services elsewhere in the country.

I came across a news report from a local ITV news regarding 142 Pacers used by First Great Western on You Tube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0G2BK04vsw&feature=related and was actually quite surprised by the report.

I understand that the trains used in the area have been downgraded, which will cause passenger dissatisfaction.  I live in the North West and the trains now used on my local line under Northern Rail are of a lower quality than under previous operator First North Western.  (My local line for which the journey time is 80-90 minutes was mainly a mixture of 142s and 150s with some 158s and 175s.  Although it now almost all 142s with a few 150s and 156s.  Although, there are more trains running to time and less cancelations.)

However, the two services which the cameras were on were very empty compared to the 142s used by Northern Rail, where most off-peak trains have less than 30 empty seats and most peak trains have over the recommended standing capacity.

I've never heard any claims of motion sickness on the 142s since they've been brought in to operation in 1984.  Although, I've heard reports of people collapsing on overcrowded 142s.

There seems to be a common misconception that Northern Rail received 10 158 Sprinters from First Great Western.  This is not the case.  A couple of former Central Trains units had been leased to Northern Rail and then sub-leased to First Great Western under the DFT^▸ (Department for Transport) instructions.  These have been returned to Northern Rail.  However, the remaining 158s that FGW^▸ (First Great Western) lost were divided between First Scotrail and East Midlands Trains.

There also seems to be a misconception about how much people think the DFT are investing in to rail in the north of England.  30 158s were received by Northern Rail but these are only for operation in the Leeds area and many overcrowded trains remain all across the north.  The 3 car 185s that Transpennine Express recieved are actually smaller than the 3 car 158s that ran some TPE^▸ (Trans Pennine Express) express services previously (but are larger than the 2 car 175s and 2 car 158s.)  Projected passenger numbers will mean that these 185s will not be able to seat 50% of passengers wishing to travel on those services by 2014.

However, I would hope that your franchise gets a new operator soon and the DFT stop investing so much in London and start investing elsewhere.

[devon_metro]

The daytime Barnstaple line services are never busy, Just wait will the summer holidays. I'm not sure the pacers will cope with the extra passengers as they are already busy, even when in 4 car formation. At least FGW^▸ (First Great Western) are investing some money to refurb the FGW pacers. More than can be said for Northern!

[simonw]

The problem with Dft/NR^» (Network Rail - home page) is that like other organisations, they like to invest in big expensive projects with positive PR^▸ (Public Relations). For example West Coast Main Line, continual refurbishments of Birmingham New Street, electrification of Lines etc.

Unfortunately, whilst this happens hundreds of small jobs that benefit most passengers are ignored, underfunded or cancelled. For example general maintenance and upgrades of signal and track on the GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line)/SWL^▸ (South Wales Line).

No one can deny that through out the country significant rail investment is needed, but until very recently and despite the large franchise payments from FGW^▸ (First Great Western), very little money has been invested in the West Country. Old and insufficient rolling stock, poor track and signalling systems, lack of capacity at Reading Station, Box Tunnel and Severn Tunnel all cause major problems.

Any gripes mentioned here relative to other areas of the country relate to the very poor experience we have of FGW, NR and Dft. Things are at last getting better, but to be honest FGW, NR and DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) have a very long way to go before we have a decent service that justifies the high prices we pay.

[Chris from Nailsea]

... and, rather belatedly, northwesterntrains, welcome to the coffee shop forum!

Chris 

[Ollie]

However, I would hope that your franchise gets a new operator soon and the DFT^▸ (Department for Transport) stop investing so much in London and start investing elsewhere.

I certainly don't, things are just starting to get better..excusing last couple days which were a bit out of FGW^▸ (First Great Western)'s control.

Your post although informative regarding rolling stock, the last comment is un-justified. Granted the service has been poor, but in recent months there has been obvious improvement.

So keep FGW.

And I ain't just saying this because I work for them, taking the franchise away will do more harm than good.

[TJ]

However, I would hope that your franchise gets a new operator soon and the DFT^▸ (Department for Transport) stop investing so much in London and start investing elsewhere.

Positively the last thing we want at the moment is a change of franchisee. FGW^▸ (First Great Western) are working damned hard to turn things around and deserve some thanks and encouragement. All a change of franchisee would bring is more upheaval and uncertainty.

As to the 142s whilst they are hardly 21st century transport I would rather have a four car pacer than a single car dogbox. On decent track they don't ride that bad are are currenly pretty reliable thanks to some stirling work by the staff at Exeter depot.

TJ

[Karl]

Morning

Yes, I remember when it was on one of our local news,
the report was full of errors to fact that it acually
got my goat a little bit!  I don't know what footage
from which broardcaster is shown on "You Tube", as I
can't get to load on my Internet TV.

I wish if they are going to slate FGW^▸ (First Great Western) about the c142's
coming down here, they would get some of there facts
right.  They said in their report that the c142's
were 30 years old.  Really, how come they are 30
years old if they were only built in 1985/6?  If
they are 30 years old then they would of been built
around 1978!

Why don't TV researchers find out first!

Regards

Karl.

I came across a news report from a local ITV news
regarding 142 Pacers used by First Great Western
on You Tube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0G2BK04vsw&feature=related

and was actually quite surprised by the report.
I understand that the trains used in the area
have been downgraded, which will cause passenger
dissatisfaction. 

[Shazz]

I hate to speculate, but his entire post reads like someone at customer relations at northern 

Welcome anyway!

[eightf48544]

I've never heard any claims of motion sickness on the 142s since they've been brought in to operation in 1984.  Although, I've heard reports of people collapsing on overcrowded 142s.

As possibly the person that stated 142s are the only train that I've ever felt any form of motion sickeness. Perhaps I should clarify it was in the late 80s on the fast stretch between Perranwell and Truro on the Falmouth branch. The train seemed to set up a rythmic bounce which made me glad to get off it at Truro.

The only other time I've been on a 14X is between Grindleford and Hope on the line of the same name and although it's not a comfortable ride I didn't experience any form of motion sickness.

So it must have been the combination of track condition and speed the first time.

However, good as they were as saviours of several lines when first they came out, they are now well past their sell by date. In fact you could say they have been victim of their own success in saving some train services which are now thriving and have outgrown the 14Xs.  But the "bean counters" still want to get everylast passenger mile out of them before they go to rolling stock Navarna.

[northwesterntrains]

Morning

Yes, I remember when it was on one of our local news,
the report was full of errors to fact that it acually
got my goat a little bit!  I don't know what footage
from which broardcaster is shown on "You Tube", as I
can't get to load on my Internet TV.

I wish if they are going to slate FGW^▸ (First Great Western) about the c142's
coming down here, they would get some of there facts
right.  They said in their report that the c142's
were 30 years old.  Really, how come they are 30
years old if they were only built in 1985/6?  If
they are 30 years old then they would of been built
around 1978!

Why don't TV researchers find out first!

Regards

Karl.

Yes it was that report. 

I was surprised that they found no complaints about squeezing on corners, it's common on most lines where they operate across the, country even though the only lines where sharp corners have caused excessive wear on the wheels is in Cornwall.  Although the Cornish people are lucky that happened pre-privatisation.  The same thing has happened with 507 and 508s in the Merseyside area, which resulted in major modifications to the 507/8s and many cancellations while that happened, rather than a switch of units.  Although I accept there's a lot more DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) around than EMUs^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit) running on a third rail.

[northwesterntrains]

However, good as they were as saviours of several lines when first they came out, they are now well past their sell by date. In fact you could say they have been victim of their own success in saving some train services which are now thriving and have outgrown the 14Xs.  But the "bean counters" still want to get everylast passenger mile out of them before they go to rolling stock Navarna.

Pacers weren't really seen as saviours on most routes they started on in the North as these were popular commuter routes in the Manchester, Leeds, Liverpool and Newcastle.  These routes would hardly have been axed but did need replacement trains for older units such as 101s.  However, 150s would have been better.

Northern Rail did order a large number of replacements for the 142s but the order was blocked by the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) as they were due to be built in China (to save on costs.)  DfT said any new trains had to be built in the EU^» (European Union - about), but preferbly in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom).  If the order had gone through then it would be likely that the 30 158s that went to Northern would have gone elsewhere, probably meaning that there would have been enough Sprinter unitss around for the 142s to have stayed in storage and not gone to First Great Western

[qwerty]

Northern Rail did order a large number of replacements for the 142s but the order was blocked by the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) as they were due to be built in China (to save on costs.)  DfT said any new trains had to be built in the EU^» (European Union - about), but preferbly in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom). 

Not wishing to doubt you, but did they really place an order?

 I seem to remeber them (Northern) flying a kite about what might be available from China, but actually placing an order is a lengthy process that would have taken months.
I dare say parties of Chinese engineers would have been visible at Newton Heath running rulers over the existing rolling stock.

It is interesting to note by way of contrast that Hitachi were seen around the UK railway for a couple of years before an order was announced.

[Super Guard]

However, I would hope that your franchise gets a new operator soon and the DFT^▸ (Department for Transport) stop investing so much in London and start investing elsewhere.

I certainly don't, things are just starting to get better..excusing last couple days which were a bit out of FGW^▸ (First Great Western)'s control.

Your post although informative regarding rolling stock, the last comment is un-justified. Granted the service has been poor, but in recent months there has been obvious improvement.

So keep FGW.

And I ain't just saying this because I work for them, taking the franchise away will do more harm than good.

I'll second all of Ollie's comments.

I haven't been with FGW for that long, but from speaking to my colleagues, things were pretty dire, but have improved and at last we are moving in the right direction.  And I have to say, i'm a pretty happy SDA, considering I have to deal with you miserable lot every day (kidding) 

[Super Guard]

The daytime Barnstaple line services are never busy, Just wait will the summer holidays. I'm not sure the pacers will cope with the extra passengers as they are already busy, even when in 4 car formation. At least FGW^▸ (First Great Western) are investing some money to refurb the FGW pacers. More than can be said for Northern!

Daytime ones are Quieeeet, but you'll find the last couple out of EXD^» (Exeter St Davids - next trains) are rammed - always quite amusing when peeps look at a 142 and ask, "Is that it?" 

The summer could be quite interesting to Exmouth/Barny/Paignton.  Summer Saturdays have proved already that the 142s are filling up fast, although you have XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) running Paignton too.

A 142 was used for the 2145 EXD-BTM^▸ (Bristol Temple Meads (strictly, it should be BRI)) last Friday evening, instead of the usual 150/153, and it was a pretty smooth ride to be honest.

[willc]

it was a pretty smooth ride to be honest

Pacers always did ride quite well on long-welded rail, it's the jointed stuff they struggle with - and they're not alone - I can remember some distinctly dodgy riding by Adelantes when they started to work the Cotswold Line on a regular basis in late 2004, especially on the few remaining bits of bullhead rail. Someone, somewhere did appear to take the suspension in hand though and the surviving 180s are much smoother, though that may also have something to do with that bullhead rail being replaced in the past couple of years as well.