IEP seats in 2025

[whole diary]

[Mark A]

Thanks for your thoughts, and yes, the risk of a DVT^▸ (Driving Van Trailer (carriage) or Deep Vein Thrombosis, depending on context) is small and also an event might occur long enough after the individual has travelled that cause and effect would not be picked up - court cases brought by passengers on this are problematic (for the passenger).

Concerning DVTs, the stats: "The risk for healthy people is approximately 1 in 107,000 for flights lasting less than four hours and 1 in 4,600 for flights lasting more than four hours. That figure increases to 1 in 1,200 for flights lasting more than 16 hours."  (Source: NHS patient leaflet)

Add risk factors to the calculation and those figures ramp up, sometimes very substantially, and one of the risk factors is damaged seating.

Two significant vulnerabilities that interfere with circulation are pressure behind the bent knee, and poorly distributed pressure beneath a thigh - the first being responsible for the increased risk for people below a certain height, while for those above a certain height, the lack of room to adjust ones position comes into play and leads to an increased risk for those people too.

The Class 800 seating as designed might avoid exposing people to the second vulnerability but not once the cushioning has collapsed to the extent that the customer's weight is carried by whatever that transverse structure is beneath it.

Agreed that GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway)'s customer service will be used to categorising passenger feedback on the IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project. This will offer more capacity on routes, save money, give a consistent and safe service and meet customer requirements. Intended to replace HSTs.) seating as a discomfort-related issue rather than a safety related issue, which masks from the organisation that some of that seating has deteriorated and is damaged to the extent that it's a safety risk for their customers.

To climb out of that silo it might be good if someone from GWR cross-checked with someone from the world of medicine. Medical equipment with that defect might well be taken out of use immediately. Yes, people in hospital may well be at a higher risk of DVT than the general population, but whether in hospital or not, we are the same people.

I don't think that GWR should immediately replace all IEP seats on this account: what they might do is audit for the ones that have deteriorated sufficiently to expose whatever structure is causing this issue and, as a priority, replace those.

Mark

[ChrisB]

They can't - they don't own them.

They would have to agree with Hitachi to pay them to replace / fix them.

And GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) won't be paying, outside their contract with the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) - so the DfT would be paying. Fat chance.

[TaplowGreen]

I don’t personally have any issue with them.  I won’t claim they’re the most comfortable seat in existence but I managed two return trips from London to Dundee with no issues last year and countless shorter journeys.

I agree, even though my rump is not as well padded/upholstered as it used to be having lost weight last year I don't find them uncomfortable.

[johnneyw]

I don’t personally have any issue with them.  I won’t claim they’re the most comfortable seat in existence but I managed two return trips from London to Dundee with no issues last year and countless shorter journeys.

I agree, even though my rump is not as well padded/upholstered as it used to be having lost weight last year I don't find them uncomfortable.

In general, I would agree with the above comments but these ones where the padding has collapsed around the seat cross support are quite a different experience, believe me, I've sat on one. 
Fortunately, the problem is restricted to a minority of seats....so far....but I think it's fair to assume that they are coming to a carriage near you soon!

[Mark A]

Thanks, Chris, for identifying the chain of responsibility for this, Industryinsider, Taplowgreen
johnneyw for emphasising that the issue does not affect 100% of the seating.

Now, if this was a workplace, I'd be off to my health and safety rep. about the risk to health from this seat defect. Witness the fact that the seats used by staff are the best on the train.

It seems I now need a "Health and Safety Executive" but for passengers on public transport.

Mark

[eightonedee]

They can't - they don't own them.

They would have to agree with Hitachi to pay them to replace / fix them.

And GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) won't be paying, outside their contract with the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about)» - so the DfT would be paying. Fat chance.

Forgive this naive comment, but I would have expected repairs of a defective seat on a train leased from its manufacturer and under a maintenance agreement with that manufacturer to have been the lessor/manufacturer's responsibility, not the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) or DfT as current lessee/operator.

[RobT]

Here's a YouTube video from a few years ago reviewing the IET^▸ (Intercity Express Train). At 15:20 it shows the structure of the seat frame beneath the cushion, and detail of the underside of the cushion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1At3LMD_QM&t=931s

[IndustryInsider]

They can't - they don't own them.

They would have to agree with Hitachi to pay them to replace / fix them.

And GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) won't be paying, outside their contract with the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about)» - so the DfT would be paying. Fat chance.

Forgive this naive comment, but I would have expected repairs of a defective seat on a train leased from its manufacturer and under a maintenance agreement with that manufacturer to have been the lessor/manufacturer's responsibility, not the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) or DfT as current lessee/operator.

I would say:
* Repairs to individual damaged seats or maintenance to ensure they aren’t damaged = Hitachi.
* Fleet wide seat replacement/design change = DfT.

[UstiImmigrunt]

They can't - they don't own them.

They would have to agree with Hitachi to pay them to replace / fix them.

And GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) won't be paying, outside their contract with the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about)» - so the DfT would be paying. Fat chance.

Forgive this naive comment, but I would have expected repairs of a defective seat on a train leased from its manufacturer and under a maintenance agreement with that manufacturer to have been the lessor/manufacturer's responsibility, not the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) or DfT as current lessee/operator.

I would say:
* Repairs to individual damaged seats or maintenance to ensure they aren’t damaged = Hitachi.
* Fleet wide seat replacement/design change = DfT.

I'd say correct on both counts but if you looked at the handover certificate on the SOROS system you'd see how many minor repairs have deferred for months if not years.

[Mark A]

Some of us will have had to look up what that was, here it is:

https://www.danburykline.co.uk/DK/soros.html

Mark

[UstiImmigrunt]

Several drivers have been complaining about this seat problem and there are many reports logged on the SOROS system.