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Author Topic: Thames Valley infrastructure problems causing disruption elsewhere - 2016  (Read 8201 times)
IndustryInsider
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« Reply #180 on: July 25, 2016, 16:28:35 »

The nearer bits of mainland Europe have a climate broadly similar to ours, and the regions distant from the sea tend to be colder in the winter and hotter in the summer. Yet continental railways seem able to cope with normal summer weather without the frequent and widespread disruption that occurs in the UK (United Kingdom).

Hot weather DOES sometimes cause disruption in mainland Europe, but only in extreme or exceptional conditions. whereas here we get significant disruption virtually every summer.

It seems a bit like the annual "leaves on the line" fiasco. I am not being flippant and I do have at least a basic understanding of the problem, but it does seem to be largely a UK problem.
In say France or Germany, leaf fall has caused delays but only rarely and in exceptional conditions, here we seem to have significant problems every autumn.

And that difference is what the majority don't understand, and hasn't, as far as I can see, bern explained yet in this thread?

Anyone care to elucidate?

Not sure I can answer the question but I can certainly offer some opinions.

Firstly, is continental Europe not so prone to such delays caused by hot/cold weather and leaf-fall?  I certainly wouldn't say I travel frequently by train in Europe, but I have been on the rail networks of twenty or so European countries over the years.  I've certainly experienced my fair share of delays and the odd cancellation on them. 

We are much more exposed to stories about British rail delays as we are in Britain, but you don't have to delve too deeply on the internet to find some horrendous stories of individual delays in Europe, and those that hold the railways of Germany in high regard might like to reconsider that opinion when they find out that only 77% of long distance trains hit their punctuality target in the January just gone.  The following recent story makes interesting reading in that regard:  https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/11/why-german-trains-dont-run-on-time-any-more

A lot is often made about it being quicker to travel in steam days between Liverpool and Manchester than it does today - you could easily say that sums up the state of Britain's railways with high speed services whizzing around Europe, but there are similar comparisons there too where Berlin to Dresden takes longer today than it did in 1939.

It should be no surprise that colder countries such as Norway deal with cold weather better than we do, and warmer countries such as Spain and Greece deal with hotter conditions better.  The Swiss network in undeniably very reliable indeed - but to say its trains always run on time is quite wrong and its average speeds are comparably slow (partly due to the terrain). 

Turning to the infrastructure - we still only have the one short section of dedicated high speed line compared with the many thousands of kilometres in Spain, Germany, France, and Italy and others.  Those railways are purpose built and have equipment such as cab signalling which is far less prone to failure.  Our railways are receiving a huge amount of investment currently, but that in itself raises challenges when incredible growth in usage clashes with upgrading of existing lines, and no extra capacity as the new trains to run on them are still being built.

Regarding the internet, I remember Graham (I think) making a very valid point regarding delays when you compare the pre-internet days.  Then you would not necessarily realise that signalling problems at Southall were delaying trains by 20 minutes one lunchtime as you weren't travelling then so wouldn't have known.  Now with the websites keeping people informed of delays it's very easy to form the impression that there are constant delays, when in actual fact there aren't.

Don't get me wrong, I find it very frustrating when the service often collapses at the first sign of hot weather, and the national punctuality levels are on a slow downward trend which is disappointing and worrying, but perhaps it's not correct to cite the rest of Europe as running a much better system, because things are not always as they seem.
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« Reply #181 on: July 25, 2016, 16:56:46 »

I've been researching since my post quoted above, and I finding that European countries tense the rail for higher temperatures, thus they only have problems at seriously high temps - while not experiencing the low temps we often see here.

So the extreme temperatures are wider apart here in the UK (United Kingdom). Thus we ought to be doing this twice a year really, for autumn/winter temps & then again for summer temps. But that's money probably better spent elsewhere & putting up with disruption on the few days each year we get temps cloer to 30c
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Andrew1939 from West Oxon
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« Reply #182 on: July 25, 2016, 17:07:53 »

Last year I had a holiday in Switzerland when I travelled on 18 different trainsmost within Switzerland.
I kept a careful record of the timings and found that 100% departed and arrived on time. However what I found different from British trains was that the timetables made very generous allowance s for possible delays with platform dwell times being usually several minutes instead of the 1-2 minutes allowed on most CL timetables. In addition the times allowed between stops were so generous that trains always arrived at the station several minutes before published arrival time so that total platform dwell times often exceeded 5 minutes and longer. It seemed to me that it was mjuch easier for trains to keep to time as a result of this than in Britain.
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« Reply #183 on: July 25, 2016, 17:25:47 »

Last year I had a holiday in Switzerland when I travelled on 18 different trainsmost within Switzerland.
I kept a careful record of the timings and found that 100% departed and arrived on time. However what I found different from British trains was that the timetables made very generous allowance s for possible delays with platform dwell times being usually several minutes instead of the 1-2 minutes allowed on most CL timetables. In addition the times allowed between stops were so generous that trains always arrived at the station several minutes before published arrival time so that total platform dwell times often exceeded 5 minutes and longer. It seemed to me that it was mjuch easier for trains to keep to time as a result of this than in Britain.

Yes but the platform re-occupation times and headways go to pot in the meantime...... Roll Eyes Tongue
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Gordon the Blue Engine
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« Reply #184 on: July 25, 2016, 17:55:17 »

Not necessarily.  I travel Zurich – Chur several times a year and they run a pretty intensive timetable on this line: a mixture of fasts, slows and freights, including over the single line section by the Walensee.  As Andrew says, the slightly leisurely timetable ensures that trains depart stations on time which is good for pathing etc.   

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Bmblbzzz
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« Reply #185 on: July 25, 2016, 19:03:17 »

Longer dwell times should be better for wheelchairists, heavy baggagers and so on, too, therefore meaning less variation from train to train according to there happening to be such passengers on each service.
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« Reply #186 on: July 26, 2016, 10:28:26 »

Longer dwell times should be better for wheelchairists, heavy baggagers and so on, too, therefore meaning less variation from train to train according to there happening to be such passengers on each service.

Pity the same logic can't be used with bus times in Cornwall
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« Reply #187 on: July 26, 2016, 12:19:14 »

Last year I had a holiday in Switzerland when I travelled on 18 different trainsmost within Switzerland.
I kept a careful record of the timings and found that 100% departed and arrived on time. However what I found different from British trains was that the timetables made very generous allowance s for possible delays with platform dwell times being usually several minutes ...

We're in the "infrastructures delay" thread ... and I fear that more generous allowances would do little for the delays we've suffered in the last 10 days; looking at Swindon (just in the Thames Valley) to Chippenham, we've had signal failures (2 incidents), axle counter failure, points failure, overrunning engineering works, as well as services cancelled because of train failures.   Frustrating ... but the TransWilts community was asked in 2012 if we would prefer to wait for the electrification / upgrades to be complete before starting our trial service, with a warning that there would be some disruption early on if we (TOC (Train Operating Company), council, community) decided not to wait, and I stand by my personal view at the time - which turned out to be the majority one - that sooner was better than later and we can live with a few problems.   I have to say I feel the correct choice was made; the crowds on the trains (at least on our more local trains that I use) are accepting - a sort of 'honeymoon' period still as they realise just how much better the service now is, and an appreciation of the effort and skill put in by operational staff at these times to get them to destination.

Where timings are being traded off between overall speed and reliability to timetable is in those little local delays which grow from slow station calls - more passengers leaving / joining than usual, passengers who are unable to hop on and off as quickly as most and perhaps need ramps to be deployed, last minute platform changes, trains that are so heaving that people are queueing on the platforms while they move up, single door operation with a crowd, short platforms, and slam doors that people who weren't regular travellers 30 years ago fail to appreciate the need to close.  As well as station calls, you may have these little delays caused by under performing traction, engineering slacks, too may carriages for the locomotives (2+9 anyone?).

Travel time has become far more "useful time" than it used to be.  Books and papers have always been available to read (and at one time you could smoke on the train), but these days with modern electronics and communication people can listen to music, play games, work on their laptops, argue with or order (!) a lift  from  their partner who's at home via their phone too.

So my view is that - within sensible limits - schedules shouldn't be the fastest that can be achieved, but practical ones where connections WILL make.  Train to bus as well as train to train, and if you need to buy an extra ticket at your interchange station and the timetable looks like there should be time,  it should be possible.   Better still - more frequent and regular interval trains even if a little slower rather than the occasional express eating up paths, with a long wait to the next train.  I was on the "Capitals Ltd" the other morning - none-stop Swindon to Paddington. And, yes, it wasn't full.   
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« Reply #188 on: July 26, 2016, 14:55:02 »

Last year I had a holiday in Switzerland when I travelled on 18 different trainsmost within Switzerland.
I kept a careful record of the timings and found that 100% departed and arrived on time. However what I found different from British trains was that the timetables made very generous allowance s for possible delays with platform dwell times being usually several minutes instead of the 1-2 minutes allowed on most CL timetables. In addition the times allowed between stops were so generous that trains always arrived at the station several minutes before published arrival time so that total platform dwell times often exceeded 5 minutes and longer. It seemed to me that it was mjuch easier for trains to keep to time as a result of this than in Britain.


I have a vague recollection of reading about Swiss timetable padding.  I think it was added nationwide on the advice of psychologists who did some research and concluded that Swiss people minded relatively little about their trains being slow but what really stresses them out was when they were slower than expected.   
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lordgoata
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« Reply #189 on: July 26, 2016, 16:21:42 »

I have a vague recollection of reading about Swiss timetable padding.  I think it was added nationwide on the advice of psychologists who did some research and concluded that Swiss people minded relatively little about their trains being slow but what really stresses them out was when they were slower than expected.   

Not just the Swiss, I feel exactly the same. When the trains are running slightly ahead and sit at a station for 5 minutes, it drives me nuts. I'd rather we'd carried on slower, and arrived on time  Tongue

Likewise when a train is timetabled to arrive at 16:35 and is ALWAYS late due to freight. If they changed it to simply arrive at 16:40 like it does anyway, it wouldn't bother me one iota!
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« Reply #190 on: August 14, 2016, 09:41:54 »

Cancellations to services at Pangbourne
Due to engineering works not being finished on time at Pangbourne all lines are disrupted.

Train services running through this station will be cancelled. Disruption is expected until 14:00 14/08.

Customer Advice
A rail replacement service will operate between Pangbourne and Tilehurst where passengers can alight for services towards Reading and London Paddington and also for services towards Didcot Parkway.


...........ongoing for several hours already. that's going to cost whoever the Contractor is a few £, smacked bottoms all round.
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bobm
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« Reply #191 on: August 14, 2016, 09:53:53 »

Points have been damaged at Scours Lane, both relief lines closed.
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Oxonhutch
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« Reply #192 on: August 14, 2016, 11:40:16 »

That sounds like them being run through under a possession.
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Gordon the Blue Engine
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« Reply #193 on: August 14, 2016, 12:14:35 »

Just noticed that the 1121 Didcot – Padd stopper was allowed to precede the 1125 Didcot – Bournemouth XC (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) from Didcot on the UM.  The outcome was the stopper was waiting time at Tilehurst and the XC was 11 late arriving at Reading.

I’m sure there was a good reason for this regulation – I can’t think what it could be but maybe someone has some suggestions….
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grahame
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« Reply #194 on: August 14, 2016, 12:42:54 »

Just noticed that the 1121 Didcot – Padd stopper was allowed to precede the 1125 Didcot – Bournemouth XC (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) from Didcot on the UM.  The outcome was the stopper was waiting time at Tilehurst and the XC was 11 late arriving at Reading.

I’m sure there was a good reason for this regulation – I can’t think what it could be but maybe someone has some suggestions….


The XC was only 3 late leaving Reading, however, as it had a stop scheduled there that's longer than operationally needed.   Had the 11:21 been held back to (say) 11:28 at Didcot, the knock-on beyond Reading would have potentially been greater that the delay beyond Reading on the Cross Country service.

I suggest there was no "right" decision to be made on the regulation of these two trains. 
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