Thames Valley infrastructure problems causing disruption elsewhere - 2015

[whole diary]

[TaplowGreen]

....someone just sent me this, made me chuckle! (perhaps each station could be equipped with one to pass the time!) 

[eightf48544]

Afraid i'm not really into model buses but i like the idea.

On a more serious note has anyone seen the structure they've put up to hang signal S132 Down Relief at A4 Dumb Bell bridge Taplow. You'll only se it from the train if you on the Up Relief looking towards the main line.

However it's visable form teh A4 going West just before the bridge.

Over-Head Line Equipment  (OHLE) compliant!

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym

[IndustryInsider]

A few others were replaced between Maidenhead and West Drayton using the same  design over the Christmas break.  A different design, encompassing a 'proper' gantry, are being used on similar signals between Reading and Didcot.

[Electric train]

On a more serious note has anyone seen the structure they've put up to hang signal S132 Down Relief at A4 Dumb Bell bridge Taplow. You'll only se it from the train if you on the Up Relief looking towards the main line.

However it's visable form teh A4 going West just before the bridge.

OHLE compliant!

Yes, one of the advantages of LED signal lamps they don't need the wick trimming of filling with paraffin seriously even over tungsten lamps LED's will last 10 years or more any maintenance can be done from MEWP^▸ (Mobile Elevating Working Platform)'s

A few others were replaced between Maidenhead and West Drayton using the same  design over the Christmas break.  A different design, encompassing a 'proper' gantry, are being used on similar signals between Reading and Didcot.

The great dividing line between Crossrail and the rest of the Route    The Crossrail route between Maidenhead and Paddington is having a ETCS^▸ (European Train Control System) system with ATO^▸ (Automatic Train Operation) potential being developed by the Thameslink signalling team for introduction at the end of the decade.  It is seen as the next step to increase line capacity, it could be all wayside signals between possibly Reading and Paddington could be abolished by 2025!

[stuving]

The great dividing line between Crossrail and the rest of the Route    The Crossrail route between Maidenhead and Paddington is having a ETCS^▸ (European Train Control System) system with ATO^▸ (Automatic Train Operation) potential being developed by the Thameslink signalling team for introduction at the end of the decade.  It is seen as the next step to increase line capacity, it could be all wayside signals between possibly Reading and Paddington could be abolished by 2025!

ETCS is going further than that - the 2013 Route Plan said:

ETCS on Western Route: CP5^▸ (Control Period 5 - the five year period between 2014 and 2019) strategy and implementation
CP5 delivery of ETCS on Western Route comprises:
Western key output 5: ETCS level 2 overlay Paddington to Heathrow by September 2017
Western key output 7: ETCS overlay Paddington to Bristol by July 2019
Western key output 8: all trains ETCS fitted/Lineside Signals removed ^ by December 2025

Unless that's slipped already ...

[Electric train]

The great dividing line between Crossrail and the rest of the Route    The Crossrail route between Maidenhead and Paddington is having a ETCS^▸ (European Train Control System) system with ATO^▸ (Automatic Train Operation) potential being developed by the Thameslink signalling team for introduction at the end of the decade.  It is seen as the next step to increase line capacity, it could be all wayside signals between possibly Reading and Paddington could be abolished by 2025!

ETCS is going further than that - the 2013 Route Plan said:

ETCS on Western Route: CP5^▸ (Control Period 5 - the five year period between 2014 and 2019) strategy and implementation
CP5 delivery of ETCS on Western Route comprises:
Western key output 5: ETCS level 2 overlay Paddington to Heathrow by September 2017
Western key output 7: ETCS overlay Paddington to Bristol by July 2019
Western key output 8: all trains ETCS fitted/Lineside Signals removed ^ by December 2025

Unless that's slipped already ...

You are probably correct with the dates, I know the TLP ETCS development team are also doing development work for Crossrail on the Western.  There is very little in the way of wayside or track equipment its all in the software and train mounted equipment

[4064ReadingAbbey]

There is very little in the way of wayside or track equipment its all in the software and train mounted equipment

I don't wish to be a Luddite, but could it be that the increased complexity of the train-borne equipment will lead to lower train reliability? Will this cancel out the greater reliability of the reduced quantity of line-side equipment?

And, as an aside, who will be responsible for looking after the train-borne equipment? The running maintenance depots or the signalling fraternity?

The on-board ETCS^▸ (European Train Control System) kit is a bit more complex than the AWS^▸ (Automatic Warning System)/TPWS^▸ (Train Protection and Warning System) kit and essentially means that significant parts of the signalling kit is moved from the lineside to the train. This seems to me to be a significant change - is there sufficient experience from the Cambrian trial to assist this changeover to be made smoothly?

[ellendune]

Yes but a train goes to a depot for maintenance and while it is undergoing maintenance it is not stopping other trains running.  If if does break in service then at least if all else fails it can be dragged out of the way.

[Electric train]

There is very little in the way of wayside or track equipment its all in the software and train mounted equipment

I don't wish to be a Luddite, but could it be that the increased complexity of the train-borne equipment will lead to lower train reliability? Will this cancel out the greater reliability of the reduced quantity of line-side equipment?

And, as an aside, who will be responsible for looking after the train-borne equipment? The running maintenance depots or the signalling fraternity?

The on-board ETCS^▸ (European Train Control System) kit is a bit more complex than the AWS^▸ (Automatic Warning System)/TPWS^▸ (Train Protection and Warning System) kit and essentially means that significant parts of the signalling kit is moved from the lineside to the train. This seems to me to be a significant change - is there sufficient experience from the Cambrian trial to assist this changeover to be made smoothly?

If a single traction unit has an ETCS failure then there are procedures to allow it to proceed under caution driver and signaller using GSM(R) (railway cell phone system) to communicate.
Even with a complete ETCS system failure drivers and signallers fall back to the time old method of talking trains through using GSM(R) and use wayside markers.

[grahame]

I don't wish to be a Luddite, but could it be that the increased complexity of the train-borne equipment will lead to lower train reliability?

I was going to answer and comment that we've seen that already, with services cancelled due to failures such as speedometer and windscreen wipers, which many steam engines never had, I don't think.   We also had a cancellation due to the failure of cab heater the other week - I was going to add that to my list of 'new failure opportunities', but then realised that if the kettle went off the boil on a steam engine, it was more of  problem than just keeping warm.

edit to sort out quoting

[Electric train]

I don't wish to be a Luddite, but could it be that the increased complexity of the train-borne equipment will lead to lower train reliability?

I was going to answer and comment that we've seen that already, with services cancelled due to failures such as speedometer and windscreen wipers, which many steam engines never had, I don't think.   We also had a cancellation due to the failure of cab heater the other week - I was going to add that to my list of 'new failure opportunities', but then realised that if the kettle went off the boil on a steam engine, it was more of  problem than just keeping warm.

edit to sort out quoting

Ah with the way DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) contract the provision of rolling stock now the train manufactures / maintainer have to present a train ready for service to the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) if its not presented fit they don't get paid ............. what can possibly go wrong with this arrangement 

[TonyK]

I don't wish to be a Luddite, but could it be that the increased complexity of the train-borne equipment will lead to lower train reliability?

I was going to answer and comment that we've seen that already, with services cancelled due to failures such as speedometer and windscreen wipers, which many steam engines never had, I don't think.   We also had a cancellation due to the failure of cab heater the other week - I was going to add that to my list of 'new failure opportunities', but then realised that if the kettle went off the boil on a steam engine, it was more of  problem than just keeping warm.

edit to sort out quoting

In aviation circles, it is said that the main advantage of a twin-engined aircraft over a single-engined model is that it doubles the chances of engine failure. I am sure that the new kit will bring with it many "new failure opportunities", although it must be said that the current kit has not been short of such opportunities of late, nor that it has failed to grasp such opportunity with enthusiasm!

That aside, one must move with the times. If the new kit is like any other computer-based system, it will be modular, to allow for easy repair.  Software upgrades will be regular, to screw every last bit of performance out of the new systems, with duplication of safety-critical parts. One can expect constant monitoring of systems, with backroom analysis driving forward improvements and efficiencies on the IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) trains.

Might be prudent to take a pack of detonators and a selection of flags along too, just in case...

[ellendune]

Ah with the way DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) contract the provision of rolling stock now the train manufactures / maintainer have to present a train ready for service to the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) if its not presented fit they don't get paid ............. what can possibly go wrong with this arrangement 

The TOC presumably uses the money saved to instantly hire another train from someone else just in time to run the service with no disruption to passengers!  

[eightf48544]

That aside, one must move with the times. If the new kit is like any other computer-based system, it will be modular, to allow for easy repair.  Software upgrades will be regular, to screw every last bit of performance out of the new systems, with duplication of safety-critical parts. One can expect constant monitoring of systems, with backroom analysis driving forward improvements and efficiencies on the IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) trains.

Might be prudent to take a pack of detonators and a selection of flags along too, just in case...

Not so sure about you optimism about software upgrades. It's going to be mammoth task to upgrade all the trains and the operaing centres simultaneously. Look at the mess the Dutch and Belgians got into on the Amsterdam Brussels HSL with different versions of the software in each country.

So detonators and flags it is.

[IndustryInsider]

Not so sure about you optimism about software upgrades. It's going to be mammoth task to upgrade all the trains and the operaing centres simultaneously.

Can't see simultaneous software upgrades being a problem in the 2020s with the technology already making it possible to upload data onto trains wirelessly in a very short space of time.