Train GraphicClick on the map to explore geographics
 
I need help
FAQ
Emergency
About .
Travel & transport from BBC stories as at 13:55 20 Apr 2025
 
- Oldest serving US astronaut returns to Earth on 70th birthday
Read about the forum [here].
Register [here] - it's free.
What do I gain from registering? [here]
 10/05/25 - BRTA Westbury
10/05/25 - Model Railsay Show, Calne
13/05/25 - Melksham TUG / AGM
14/05/25 - West Wiltshire RUG

On this day
20th Apr (1789)
Opening of Sapperton Canal Tunnel

Train RunningCancelled
10:36 Paignton to London Paddington
11:19 Swansea to London Paddington
13:30 London Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads
14:00 Cheltenham Spa to Swindon
15:29 Swindon to Cheltenham Spa
15:40 Plymouth to Penzance
17:00 Cheltenham Spa to London Paddington
17:09 Weston-Super-Mare to Severn Beach
17:16 Bristol Temple Meads to Severn Beach
17:30 London Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads
17:37 London Paddington to Swansea
17:48 Bristol Temple Meads to Weymouth
18:00 Cardiff Central to Taunton
18:01 Severn Beach to Bristol Temple Meads
18:15 Penzance to Plymouth
18:35 Severn Beach to Bristol Temple Meads
19:43 Swindon to Westbury
20:00 Bristol Temple Meads to London Paddington
20:09 Portsmouth Harbour to Cardiff Central
20:11 Weymouth to Bristol Temple Meads
20:17 Taunton to Bristol Temple Meads
21:39 Bristol Temple Meads to Gloucester
22:45 London Paddington to Bristol Parkway
23:12 Bristol Temple Meads to Weston-Super-Mare
23:49 Weston-Super-Mare to Bristol Temple Meads
Short Run
08:47 Penzance to Cardiff Central
10:25 Cardiff Central to Portsmouth Harbour
10:50 Penzance to Cardiff Central
10:55 Cardiff Central to Penzance
11:09 Portsmouth Harbour to Cardiff Central
11:25 Cardiff Central to Portsmouth Harbour
11:41 Swindon to Weymouth
11:50 Penzance to Cardiff Central
11:57 Cardiff Central to Exeter St Davids
12:09 Portsmouth Harbour to Cardiff Central
12:25 Cardiff Central to Portsmouth Harbour
13:00 Cardiff Central to Penzance
13:09 Portsmouth Harbour to Cardiff Central
13:16 Taunton to Cardiff Central
13:25 Okehampton to Exeter Central
13:25 Cardiff Central to Portsmouth Harbour
14:00 Cardiff Central to Penzance
14:07 London Paddington to Cardiff Central
14:09 Portsmouth Harbour to Cardiff Central
14:25 Cardiff Central to Portsmouth Harbour
15:00 Cardiff Central to Penzance
15:09 Portsmouth Harbour to Cardiff Central
15:25 Cardiff Central to Portsmouth Harbour
15:35 Severn Beach to Weston-Super-Mare
15:42 Exeter St Davids to Cardiff Central
16:00 Cardiff Central to Taunton
16:18 Penzance to London Paddington
16:25 Cardiff Central to Portsmouth Harbour
16:36 Cardiff Central to London Paddington
17:00 Cardiff Central to Taunton
17:25 Cardiff Central to Portsmouth Harbour
17:40 Cardiff Central to Westbury
18:00 London Paddington to Penzance
18:11 Castle Cary to Swindon
19:39 Bristol Temple Meads to Worcester Shrub Hill
20:30 London Paddington to Weston-Super-Mare
20:30 Cardiff Central to Portsmouth Harbour
21:57 Worcester Shrub Hill to Bristol Temple Meads
Delayed
12:37 London Paddington to Swansea
etc
PollsThere are no open or recent polls
Abbreviation pageAcronymns and abbreviations
Stn ComparatorStation Comparator
Rail newsNews Now - live rail news feed
Site Style 1 2 3 4
Next departures • Bristol Temple MeadsBath SpaChippenhamSwindonDidcot ParkwayReadingLondon PaddingtonMelksham
Exeter St DavidsTauntonWestburyTrowbridgeBristol ParkwayCardiff CentralOxfordCheltenham SpaBirmingham New Street
April 20, 2025, 13:58:35 *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Forgotten your username or password? - get a reminder
Most recently liked subjects
[189] Fortuitous connections ... and an App which fails to offer the...
[112] RNLI station celebrates 10 years of saving lives - Portishead,...
[58] FOSS and FOSW validity - some quirks
[57] St Erth station - facilities, footbridge, improvements, incide...
[47] More than half of train travellers now use the railway for lei...
[44] Eyesight rules for motorists unsafe, says coroner
 
News: A forum for passengers ... with input from rail professionals welcomed too
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: [1]
  Print  
Author Topic: London City Airport expansion approved  (Read 3619 times)
TaplowGreen
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 8616



View Profile
« on: August 20, 2024, 18:03:45 »

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/clyw80v45jeo
Logged
Bob_Blakey
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 880


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2024, 15:09:04 »

Any repeatable response from Ed Milliband yet?
Logged
broadgage
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 5674



View Profile
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2024, 01:12:57 »

Very regrettable in my view for reasons of climate change, and local air pollution and noise nuisance.

Why is it that new railway schemes are endlessly talked about, postponed, and downgraded, but airport expansion goes ahead so readily.
Logged

A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
Clan Line
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 989



View Profile
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2024, 12:33:06 »

Why is it that new railway schemes are endlessly talked about, postponed, and downgraded, but airport expansion goes ahead so readily.

Because even the dumbest politician can see that railways are a money "Black Hole" (ask Mr Starmer what that means  Smiley) Air travel makes money (generally) for all involved and provides lots of jobs.

Travelling by train is not a particularly pleasant experience nowadays - or cheap !  I pointed out in a post a while back that I flew from Heathrow to Denver and back (in Business Class) for far less, per mile, that I did travelling "Cattle Class" on a (tax payer subsidised too) return trip to Temple Meads.  A friend of mine recently got the Cardiff to Penzance train (1st Class) and was told there was no catering whatsoever on that route !!

Like it or not, someone with money to spend/invest is going to buy an Airbus A350 not a fleet of IETs (Intercity Express Train - replacement for HSTs (manufactured by Hitachi in Kobe, Japan)).
Logged
Bob_Blakey
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 880


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2024, 09:47:55 »

Because even the dumbest politician can see that railways are a money "Black Hole" (ask Mr Starmer what that means  Smiley) Air travel makes money (generally) for all involved and provides lots of jobs. .....

This is undoubtedly true but would the situation change if airlines had to pay the same rate of fuel tax as TOCs (Train Operating Company) / FOCs (Freight Operating Company, or possibly 'free of charge', depending on context)? Also it seems obvious (to me at least!) that airlines are on the hook for far less fixed infrastructure than train operators.
Logged
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 43856



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2024, 11:20:23 »

Also it seems obvious (to me at least!) that airlines are on the hook for far less fixed infrastructure than train operators.

That is very true ... but should we acknowledge both strengths and weaknesses?   If I'm headed to Inverness,  infrastructure for air is limited to the two ends, to road is shared with many and can go up and down hills a lot reducing some of the infrastructure per unit costs, but rail needs to be much flatter and more heavily engineered.
Logged

Coffee Shop Admin, Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, TravelWatch SouthWest Board Member
Clan Line
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 989



View Profile
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2024, 12:43:05 »

Because even the dumbest politician can see that railways are a money "Black Hole" (ask Mr Starmer what that means  Smiley) Air travel makes money (generally) for all involved and provides lots of jobs. .....

This is undoubtedly true but would the situation change if airlines had to pay the same rate of fuel tax as TOCs (Train Operating Company) / FOCs (Freight Operating Company, or possibly 'free of charge', depending on context)? Also it seems obvious (to me at least!) that airlines are on the hook for far less fixed infrastructure than train operators.

This argument, I am afraid, is a well-worn red herring. I was told years ago by a BA» (British Airways - about) Captain that his shiny new 757 had used 800 gals of fuel to move 200 people from Edinburgh to Heathrow - 4 gals a head (bum on seat ?), 20% VAT (Value Added Tax) is peanuts. Even on long haul flights it will have minimal effect - with Ryanair now quoting ludicrously low fares people won't notice. The effect on the trains, of course, will be absolutely zero.

"Airlines are on the hook for far less fixed infrastructure than train operators".............really !!!  Exactly what ?? Heathrow doesn't shut down at the weekend and lay on buses to Glasgow or wherever, or shut down for a month to resurface the runways. One of my last jobs before I retired was with the replacement of the huge radar antennae used to control air traffic over the UK (United Kingdom). NATS (National Air Traffic Services) paid my company - the airlines paid NATS - the passengers paid the airlines.................NO public money involved ! If you look on the Network Rail website under "income", the very first thing on there is "Government grants".

If I'm headed to Inverness,  infrastructure for air is limited to the two ends

Sorry, but you are wrong there Grahame. There are lots of people from NATS watching flights to Inverness all the way - telling them where to go, and at what height. 24 hrs a day, 7 days a week. The infrastructure doesn't stop at the end of the runway.

Admittedly, the airlines do have some advantages. They can buy the model of airliner they want, they can put in what seats they want, they decide which places they want to serve. They are not told by some Government minion to buy what many passengers later come to look on as utter, uncomfortable junk ! (737 Max excluded)
Logged
Bob_Blakey
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 880


View Profile
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2024, 09:19:16 »

NATS is 49% owned by the government (AKA ('also known as') taxpayers) so I would question the assertion that no 'public' money is involved in supporting the service.
Logged
ChrisB
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 13328


View Profile Email
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2024, 11:50:13 »

This argument, I am afraid, is a well-worn red herring. I was told years ago by a BA» (British Airways - about) Captain that his shiny new 757 had used 800 gals of fuel to move 200 people from Edinburgh to Heathrow - 4 gals a head (bum on seat ?), 20% VAT (Value Added Tax) is peanuts. Even on long haul flights it will have minimal effect - with Ryanair now quoting ludicrously low fares people won't notice.

What about fuel duty?....
Logged
Clan Line
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 989



View Profile
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2024, 15:44:37 »

NATS is 49% owned by the government (AKA ('also known as') taxpayers) so I would question the assertion that no 'public' money is involved in supporting the service.

True ..............but as you quite rightly say: "no 'public' money is involved in supporting (my highlighting) the service." I believe the MoD and other Governmental organisations pay NATS for services provided but this is done on a purely commercial basis.


What about fuel duty?....

OK, two bags of peanuts then.........Ryanair to Alicante is £24.99 - 3 bags of peanuts !  (That is the cost of buying 3 bags of peanuts on Ryanair too !)
Logged
ChrisB
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 13328


View Profile Email
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2024, 15:47:12 »

Fuel duty per litre would almost buy you some peanuts alone. How many litres on a 4 hour flight?
Logged
Do you have something you would like to add to this thread, or would you like to raise a new question at the Coffee Shop? Please [register] (it is free) if you have not done so before, or login (at the top of this page) if you already have an account - we would love to read what you have to say!

You can find out more about how this forum works [here] - that will link you to a copy of the forum agreement that you can read before you join, and tell you very much more about how we operate. We are an independent forum, provided and run by customers of Great Western Railway, for customers of Great Western Railway and we welcome railway professionals as members too, in either a personal or official capacity. Views expressed in posts are not necessarily the views of the operators of the forum.

As well as posting messages onto existing threads, and starting new subjects, members can communicate with each other through personal messages if they wish. And once members have made a certain number of posts, they will automatically be admitted to the "frequent posters club", where subjects not-for-public-domain are discussed; anything from the occasional rant to meetups we may be having ...

 
Pages: [1]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.2 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
This forum is provided by customers of Great Western Railway (formerly First Great Western), and the views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that the content provided by one of our posters contravenes our posting rules via admin@railcustomer.info. Full legal statement (here).

Jump to top of pageJump to Forum Home Page