Seat Reservations on FGW

[whole diary]

[inspector_blakey]

They are still printed on the bottom of the slips:

Penalty for unauthorized occupation of seat: ^50
Penalty for unauthorized removal of label: ^200

I guess these penalties are buried away in the Railway Byelaws, although I have no idea if they've ever been enforced.

[Btline]

Yes, but I don't think it should be "unauthorised" if it is my seat and that, by moving it, I am allowing someone else to sit down!

Btw, I once saw a guard on a Hereford train walking through the train, removing all reservation cards around Moreton! (I think the reason was that it was on a 180, and the cards were for an HST^▸ (High Speed Train)!)

[GaryM]

Hi Gary, some advice and comments from an on-train worker:

Once the train has departed from a station, after a few minutes it should be obvious if somebody is going to turn up or not for a reserved seat. If it is not occupied on departure, feel free to sit in it.

From personal observation, I'd estimate at least a third of reservations on quieter trains are not occupied

...

Hi flamingo...thanks for your comments.

Having been a commuter in and out of London for 16 odd years, I've learnt most of the tricks of the trade and have no problems sitting next to a complete stranger, even if I have to ask them to get up to let me into the window seat And I always take great pleasure in making those selfish people who seem to think their bag deserves a seat to itself move them so I can sit there instead, even if there are lots of other already empty seats in the carriage without any bags on

A third of reservations not taken up on some trains is quite a high number. The problem with taking a chance in a reserved seat in the hope that it's one of the "phantom" reservations for a flexible ticket where the customer has chosen to take another train, is that it's still just pure pot luck and you may end up sitting in a seat where the customer *has* actually boarded the train and therefore end up getting kicked out. If those reservations weren't there in the first place then the seat would belong to the person who sat in it first with no need to take any such gamble and no arguments over who has the right to sit in the seat and when.

Out of interest, if a commuter was sat in a reserved seat and the customer who reserved that seat then turned up to try and claim it after the train had departed the station, if the commuter refused to give up the seat and that customer decided to complain to you, would you just tell them it is their bad luck for not getting to the seat before the train departed or would you ask the commuter to move (I mean in reality, not in theory)? And is the same general view shared by all train managers that if a customer has not claimed his or her reserved seat by the time the train departs the "reserved from" station then that seat reservation immediately becomes void and they no longer have any right to claim that seat?

[GaryM]

and just to add...

You can't just hang around until after the train leaves to see what reserved seats haven't been occupied because by the time the train leaves all seats are nearly always already taken either by the people who reserved them, or by commuters who have already decided to take a chance in them. Therefore if you want a seat and there are only reserved ones left, you have no real choice but to take the gamble BEFORE the train actually departs.

[super tm]

[/quote]


Out of interest, if a commuter was sat in a reserved seat and the customer who reserved that seat then turned up to try and claim it after the train had departed the station, if the commuter refused to give up the seat and that customer decided to complain to you, would you just tell them it is their bad luck for not getting to the seat before the train departed or would you ask the commuter to move (I mean in reality, not in theory)? And is the same general view shared by all train managers that if a customer has not claimed his or her reserved seat by the time the train departs the "reserved from" station then that seat reservation immediately becomes void and they no longer have any right to claim that seat?
[/quote]

You have to allow for the fact that the train is eight coaches long and sometimes people do get on at the last minute.  Give them some time to walk down, usually about 5 minutes to be on the safe side.

[moonrakerz]

I traveled from Worcester to Warminster (direct, on FGW^▸ (First Great Western)) last Wednesday and the first thing I noticed was the huge number of "reserved" tickets on the seats. The train was fairly busy, not helped by only being two coaches. I noticed that the two seats opposite us (on a table) were reserved from Westbury to Southampton; at Bath these two seats were taken by boarding passengers - who just didn't seem to notice the reservation tickets. At Westbury, the passengers who had reserved these seats "claimed" them back, at this point we said they could have ours as we were about to get off anyway. By this time the train was extremely full, with people standing in the vestibules.

It does seem rather perverse that those who pay the least for their tickets are automatically guaranteed a seat, whilst those who pay through the nose are not; having said that I fully understand why cheap tickets have reservations "attached" to them.  I did hear people boarding at Cheltenham/Gloucester etc complaining that all the seats were reserved, closer examination would reveal that many of these seats were not required until Bath, Salisbury or Southampton. Another major failing of the current system is the inability to "use" the same seat more than once. If the train I was on required a "reserved" seat from Worcester to Bristol Parkway; then one from Bristol TM^‡(resolve) to Bath Spa, then one from Westbury to Southampton and finally one from Fareham to Brighton this requires that 4 different seats each have a reserved ticket put on them. If nothing else, this seems to give a false impression of the "load factor" of the train and clearly confuses many boarding passengers.

I had actually commented to my wife earlier in the journey that the seat reservation system is still operating on the same technology that Brunel must have used. What is needed is a small LCD display on each seat back showing the reservation details, as per the paper ticket at present.  On the top of each display there should be a red or green light which would show the availability of that particular seat at that segment of the journey.

Having "criticised" FGW, could I now say what a bargain my journey actually was. We were going to Birmingham to see Tina Turner (Great !!!). The "full" (off peak) return fare from Warminster to Birmingham was ^30.70 (^54.10 anytime!). By splitting at Worcester and using a fistful of advance singles (and reservation tickets) , the return fare was ^14.40. It will be even less now I have my ^5 FGW voucher, when we go up to see the Eagles in July !

[Super Guard]

Another major failing of the current system is the inability to "use" the same seat more than once. If the train I was on required a "reserved" seat from Worcester to Bristol Parkway; then one from Bristol TM^‡(resolve) to Bath Spa, then one from Westbury to Southampton and finally one from Fareham to Brighton this requires that 4 different seats each have a reserved ticket put on them. If nothing else, this seems to give a false impression of the "load factor" of the train and clearly confuses many boarding passengers.

That's totally wrong actually.  It is possible for the system to assign the same seat more than once.  I've seen reservation slips with EXD^» (Exeter St Davids - next trains)-TAU^» (Taunton - next trains), TAU-RDG^‡(resolve), RDG-PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) on before, and countless other examples.

[GaryM]

You have to allow for the fact that the train is eight coaches long and sometimes people do get on at the last minute.  Give them some time to walk down, usually about 5 minutes to be on the safe side.

Yes...during which time you're sitting in a reserved seat (the only ones left available) wondering if and when you are going to get kicked out. Under fair circumstances (with no seat reservations), that person who boarded the train at the last minute would be left without a seat which should be the consequences of not getting to the train in good time (something which I myself would expect if I got on a train late). Instead, they swan down the train and kick some poor person out of their seat who, due to the lack of unreserved seats took a gamble in a reserved seat (which IMO^▸ (in my opinion) they should be entitled to having got on the train before that other person).

If you ever see the trains on a Friday (admittedly when they will be at their busiest), the whole train is absolute chaos with people trying to squeeze past other people already standing in the aisles in order to try and find their reserved seats Again, with no seat reservations this wouldn't be an issue because some of the people standing in aisles would already be in seats (that they deserve having got there first) and those who boarded late would be the ones standing in the aisles. There would then be no-one squeezing up and down the train trying to find their reserved seats because there wouldn't be any!

First come, first served is the way it should be where a seat can't be guaranteed to every customer (which I think we all agree and understand just insn't possible with the amount of people who travel on the trains).

[devon_metro]

I'm still not really sure that is fair though?

Is it fair that if somebody has a tight connection and cannot physically arrive half an hour before the train departs and then is not entitled to a seat?

If I was travelling back from London on Friday evening, on the 1803/1903 departures towards Penzance I would be fairly outraged if I was not allowed a reservation with my ticket and would probably choose to find another method of getting there! I understand these services are often packed as far as Exeter (often further) so my 2hr30 journey to Newton Abbot would be a nightmare. The ability to pay ^5 for a reservation to guarantee a seat would be a godsend!

[moonrakerz]

Another major failing of the current system is the inability to "use" the same seat more than once. If the train I was on required a "reserved" seat from Worcester to Bristol Parkway; then one from Bristol TM^‡(resolve) to Bath Spa, then one from Westbury to Southampton and finally one from Fareham to Brighton this requires that 4 different seats each have a reserved ticket put on them. If nothing else, this seems to give a false impression of the "load factor" of the train and clearly confuses many boarding passengers.

That's totally wrong actually. 

I'm sorry, but you should perhaps tell FGW^▸ (First Great Western) that  - not me ! Every seat (in my coach) had only one reservation (ticket) on it - and I saw cases of "non overlapping" reservations on separate seats.
I must confess that I am perhaps not the most widely traveled rail passenger but I don't recollect ever having seen more than one reservation on a particular seat/ticket.

[paul7575]

I'm sorry, but you should perhaps tell FGW^▸ (First Great Western) that  - not me ! Every seat (in my coach) had only one reservation (ticket) on it - and I saw cases of "non overlapping" reservations on separate seats.
I must confess that I am perhaps not the most widely traveled rail passenger but I don't recollect ever having seen more than one reservation on a particular seat/ticket.

'Non-overlapping' reservations on the same label are indeed normal. However they won't be forced by the reservations system if for example passengers have expressed preferences for window or aisle seats [or facing/back where still available].

Paul

[devon_metro]

I often see seats with 3 bookings for reservations. Back to the point about LCD displays - these absolutely should not be installed unless a way of displaying all of the data can be introduced. The Voyager system is hopeless. The fact that XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) installed them on their HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) and aren't going to be using them says it all!!!

[Btline]

Why did XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) install them?

I'm still not really sure that is fair though?
Is it fair that if somebody has a tight connection and cannot physically arrive half an hour before the train departs and then is not entitled to a seat?
If I was travelling back from London on Friday evening, on the 1803/1903 departures towards Penzance I would be fairly outraged if I was not allowed a reservation with my ticket and would probably choose to find another method of getting there! I understand these services are often packed as far as Exeter (often further) so my 2hr30 journey to Newton Abbot would be a nightmare. The ability to pay ^5 for a reservation to guarantee a seat would be a godsend!

I agree - abolishing seat reservations would basically add 30 mins onto your journey time, making rail less competitibe!

And I would have thought that commuters, with seasons, will generally turn up LATER than other passengers travelling longer distances. So the first come first serve system would still leave commuters standing.

[Zoe]

There could be a case though for making Advance fairs trains specific rather than train and seat specific.  There could then be an additional ^5 reservation charge if you wanted to reserve a seat.

[super tm]

There could be a case though for making Advance fairs trains specific rather than train and seat specific.  There could then be an additional ^5 reservation charge if you wanted to reserve a seat.

No you could not have an advance ticket without a seat reservation.  You cannot force someone to stand if they dont want to.  That is why Advance tickets come with a booked seat.

Also if they did not have a seat reservation then it would become like a flexible ticket as they would just say - oh we could not get on the booked train it was too full