Seat Reservations on FGW

[whole diary]

[cholsey]

As a regular commuter from Paddington I nearly always end up chancing it in a reserved seat in the evening and have never been asked to move by the seats rightful owner.

To be honest even if someone has a reserved seat on a particular service they are likely to arrive for the train with plenty of time to avoid missing it, and therefore have a choice of seats (reserved or not).   I often wonder if some people sit in the seat next to their reserved seat in the hope of getting a adjacent vacant seat for their journey.......

[Zoe]

and therefore have a choice of seats (reserved or not).   I often wonder if some people sit in the seat next to their reserved seat in the hope of getting a adjacent vacant seat for their journey.......

If they have an Advance ticket though they are required to sit in their reserved seat.  It's one reason why I don't like using Advance tickets.

[Timmer]

If they have an Advance ticket though they are required to sit in their reserved seat.

Wonder how many actually do sit in the seat reserved for them with an advance ticket?

[GaryM]

I'm still not really sure that is fair though?

Is it fair that if somebody has a tight connection and cannot physically arrive half an hour before the train departs and then is not entitled to a seat?

If I was travelling back from London on Friday evening, on the 1803/1903 departures towards Penzance I would be fairly outraged if I was not allowed a reservation with my ticket and would probably choose to find another method of getting there! I understand these services are often packed as far as Exeter (often further) so my 2hr30 journey to Newton Abbot would be a nightmare. The ability to pay ^5 for a reservation to guarantee a seat would be a godsend!

Most of the commuters on these trains actually get off at the first 3 stops (Reading, Didcot or Swindon) so those seats would then become free for any standing passengers who are travelling a further distance. This would be fair because most passengers would then get a seat for at least part of their journey. It was mentioned earlier somewhere that commuters should just stand for the few stops they are travelling to. If this is the case then why can't other passengers stand for a few stops and then take the seats when the commuters get off? Suggesting this is basically saying that commuters are inferior passengers

If the "10 minute rule" was applied and you got to your seat 10 minutes after the train had departed (due to the mass of people you had to try and clamber over through 8 carriages to get there) then you would have lost your entitlement and would have to stand until another seat become vacant anyway.

As far as being outraged goes, this is exactly what commuters are when they are just trying to get home after a hard days work and board a train only to find wall-to-wall seat reservations with nowhere to sit without the potential threat of being turfed out.

The issue you mention about trains being packed all the way to Exeter actually raises another question which is off topic for this thread so should really be for another topic but I will add my 2p worth here anyway: Where it is already known how many advance tickets have been sold for a certain train, FGW^▸ (First Great Western) should NOT be selling any more tickets for those trains where they have already reached a preset subscribed threshold. The assumption must also be made that a certain percentage of commuters will also occupy the train at certain times. This would then ensure those trains are operating with a SAFE number of passengers on board which is certainly not something which can be said with the current system in place with people packed up the aisles and in the vestibules like sardines.

[GaryM]

I agree - abolishing seat reservations would basically add 30 mins onto your journey time, making rail less competitibe!

You've lost me there. How exactly would no seat reservations cause a journey to take longer?

And I would have thought that commuters, with seasons, will generally turn up LATER than other passengers travelling longer distances. So the first come first serve system would still leave commuters standing.

Not true. If anything, commuters actually get to a train EARLIER than other passengers because over time they learn which platform most trains will be on before the train is actually announced and will either get a good starting position for when the herd of cattle begin to pile down the platform towards the train, or they will get on the train before it's been officially announced (after they've let the cleaners and other workers vacate the train first of course). However, even with this clear advantage, being faced with carriages full of reserved seats will put pay to all that anyway...

[GaryM]

As a regular commuter from Paddington I nearly always end up chancing it in a reserved seat in the evening and have never been asked to move by the seats rightful owner.

I think you've been a bit luckier than me then. While I haven't always been kicked out of a reserved seat, on the last 3 consecutive times that I've taken a chance I have, which is one of the reasons it prompted me to question the whole seat reservation system and thus post this topic on here.

[GaryM]

If they have an Advance ticket though they are required to sit in their reserved seat.

Wonder how many actually do sit in the seat reserved for them with an advance ticket?

This is probably one of the other "flaws" in the system. I've actually sat and watched people turn up to their reserved seat and when they verbally announce that they would actually quite like a window seat to an aisle seat after all, or they don't actually want to be travelling backwards, they leave their reserved seat (with ticket still in place) and potter off in search of another seat

[Btline]

I agree - abolishing seat reservations would basically add 30 mins onto your journey time, making rail less competitibe!

You've lost me there. How exactly would no seat reservations cause a journey to take longer?

And I would have thought that commuters, with seasons, will generally turn up LATER than other passengers travelling longer distances. So the first come first serve system would still leave commuters standing.

Not true. If anything, commuters actually get to a train EARLIER than other passengers because over time they learn which platform most trains will be on before the train is actually announced and will either get a good starting position for when the herd of cattle begin to pile down the platform towards the train, or they will get on the train before it's been officially announced (after they've let the cleaners and other workers vacate the train first of course). However, even with this clear advantage, being faced with carriages full of reserved seats will put pay to all that anyway...

It adds time to the journey because people arrive a lot earlier to guarantee a seat.

Commuters are less likely to be around at the station for much beforehand, as they get the train everyday and can time when to leave work etc.

However, those occasional travellers booked on a certain train will leave plenty of time to get the Tube, and will arrive at the station well beforehand.

If they have an Advance ticket though they are required to sit in their reserved seat.

Wonder how many actually do sit in the seat reserved for them with an advance ticket?

This is probably one of the other "flaws" in the system. I've actually sat and watched people turn up to their reserved seat and when they verbally announce that they would actually quite like a window seat to an aisle seat after all, or they don't actually want to be travelling backwards, they leave their reserved seat (with ticket still in place) and potter off in search of another seat

Hence why I always take out my card if I move. Sorry if that is "unauthorised".

[GaryM]

I agree - abolishing seat reservations would basically add 30 mins onto your journey time, making rail less competitibe!

You've lost me there. How exactly would no seat reservations cause a journey to take longer?

It adds time to the journey because people arrive a lot earlier to guarantee a seat.

So it only adds time to the passengers journey and not the actual train journey. This is no different from any other queuing system in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom). If you want to guarantee that you get something then you need to "queue up" early.

And I would have thought that commuters, with seasons, will generally turn up LATER than other passengers travelling longer distances. So the first come first serve system would still leave commuters standing.

Not true. If anything, commuters actually get to a train EARLIER than other passengers because over time they learn which platform most trains will be on before the train is actually announced and will either get a good starting position for when the herd of cattle begin to pile down the platform towards the train, or they will get on the train before it's been officially announced (after they've let the cleaners and other workers vacate the train first of course). However, even with this clear advantage, being faced with carriages full of reserved seats will put pay to all that anyway...

Commuters are less likely to be around at the station for much beforehand, as they get the train everyday and can time when to leave work etc.

However, those occasional travellers booked on a certain train will leave plenty of time to get the Tube, and will arrive at the station well beforehand.

It makes no difference. Any experienced commuters WILL always be onboard the train before any other (non-commuter or inexperienced commuter) passengers even if they get to the station later, for the reasons I already mentioned above.

[grahame]

The strong debate here is a really good airing of views - but I would really like to have some reservation statistics (not just hearsay) as a grounding to continue.   I know I asked earlier and got no response so I'll try again does anyone who reads or posts here and is in the industry know of (or, better, have access to) any stats about seat reservations - proportion of seats reserved on a train, proportions correctly taken up, incorrectly occupied, etc, etc? or is the whole system "top secret" or simply left to get on with itself.  I know that in my own Victor Meldrew-ish style that at times I have looked at all those empty seats and white tags and though "I don't believe it ....".

It strikes me that the occasional passenger will arrive at the STATION well before the commuter (on average), and that that commuter will arrive at a/the seat on the TRAIN well before the passenger. At intermediate stations, the commuter knows where the train will stop, has less luggage and is more mobile. At London (Paddington) - where FGW^▸ (First Great Western) has more starting passengers that any other of their termini - you get that buildup at the concourse until the platform is announced, from where the agility of the commuter allows him / her to dash for a seat ... and he / she will know it is worth moving fast.  At other termini where perhaps the train is available much earlier, the occasional traveller may get there first.


Edit to add ... I'm trying not to take this thread off topic, so I have added a separate post at
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=4520.0
which compares the prices paid by different types / groups of travellers per journey, to help put discussions on this point into context.  Also note - the statement that "season ticket is guarantee income for the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company)" is incorrect as refunds can be applied for and indeed I understand that at least one TOC has had to make refunds that are 'significant' due to people who had thought their London jobs were safe for a year finding that wasn't so.

[moonrakerz]

I'm sorry, but you should perhaps tell FGW^▸ (First Great Western) that  - not me ! Every seat (in my coach) had only one reservation (ticket) on it - and I saw cases of "non overlapping" reservations on separate seats.
I must confess that I am perhaps not the most widely traveled rail passenger but I don't recollect ever having seen more than one reservation on a particular seat/ticket.

However they won't be forced by the reservations system if for example passengers have expressed preferences for window or aisle seats [or facing/back where still available].

Paul

Actually that was something that did intrigue me, the service I traveled on reversed direction so many times that I didn't know if I was coming or going !   

[paul7575]

However they won't be forced by the reservations system if for example passengers have expressed preferences for window or aisle seats [or facing/back where still available].

Paul

Actually that was something that did intrigue me, the service I traveled on reversed direction so many times that I didn't know if I was coming or going !   

Expressing a facing or backward preference for reservations was always a cause of arguments on trains that reversed on route, such as XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) at Reading and New St, as the labels would all be placed at start of journey. Most recent builds, and most overhauled trains seem to have uniquely numbered seats nowadays, so a direction preference is only really possible on trains that normally stay the same way round, such as FGW^▸ (First Great Western)'s HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train); and then probably only at a booking office where the staff know which numbers are where. 

SWT^▸ (South West Trains)'s 158s and 159s maintain the tradition of seats either side of tables having the same numbers though, unusually.

Paul

[devon_metro]

Where I work, if people do not have tickets to enter somewhere they must queue (for up to half an hour today) however if they have pre-booked their tickets (much akin to seat reservations) they are able to jump the 200m long queue of people and enter instantaneously! There is an element of first come first serve, however this operates very much like coach C on HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train). FGW^▸ (First Great Western) is going to sell as many seats as possible even if they aren't occupied. A train with people standing up is more economically viable after-all!

If it really does bother you that much, nobody is stopping you actually getting a seat reservation!!

[johoare]

If it really does bother you that much, nobody is stopping you actually getting a seat reservation!!

Hello devon_metro.. GaryM, who started this topic, says that he has an annual season ticket and, if I am correct, people with season tickets cannot reserve seats (can they?) 

[devon_metro]

Did somebody not mention further up that they can book seats on one set train per journey for the duration of the season?