Seat Reservations on FGW

[whole diary]

[dog box]

seat reservations are a pain and i do agree partly with what you are saying....but you dont actually state where your destination station from London actually is, and if i remember there is something written down about not having to stand for more than a certain length of time on your journey.
Allowing people to sit in first class carte blanche wont happen although the T/M is allowed to use discretion on this in times of a very busy train

[GaryM]

My issue isn't actually the fact that I sometimes have to stand (because at the end of the day, some people have to) but it's about the fact that even if the train is relatively empty when I board it, with almost every seat reserved, if all of the few non-reserved seats are already taken then I get no choice but to either stand or take a chance with a reserved seat, even though most of the train is still empty.

By reserving virtually the whole train, FGW^▸ (First Great Western) is effectively forcing anyone with a travel card to stand because travel card holders don't get seat reservations! It's nice to see that FGW value their travel card holders so highly (the people who pay them vast amounts of money up front to enable them to run their services in the first place)

My start / destination station is Didcot Parkway which is usually a ~45 minute journey. I've not seen anything written down with regards to the amount of time people are "expected" to stand for so if you have a link to this information I would certainly be interested to see it.

[inspector_blakey]

Welcome to the forum GaryM.

Somewhere buried away in DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) documentation is a requirement (or aspiration, at least) that commuters should not have to stand for a journey of more than 20 minutes. Can't remember where I'm afraid.

You can try heading for coach C on HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) (which from my observations seems to be left free of reservations as a general rule) or checking the reservation tickets in the seat backs: just because there's a reservation displayed it doesn't necessarily mean you can't sit there. If the seat is not reserved between PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains)/DID^» (Didcot Parkway - next trains) then you are perfectly entitled to use it. Trains making longer journeys (Swansea, Carmarthen, Taunton, Exeter, Plymouth, Penzance etc) also tend to be more heavily reserved than shorter workings (Cardiff and Bristol T M).

[devon_metro]

Is it fair to say a passenger travelling to Swansea for example that a 2hr plus journey should also include a gamble on getting a seat?

However, if you are travelling at peak hours, I am suprised the train is heavily reseved!

[GaryM]

You can try heading for coach C on HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) (which from my observations seems to be left free of reservations as a general rule) or checking the reservation tickets in the seat backs: just because there's a reservation displayed it doesn't necessarily mean you can't sit there. If the seat is not reserved between PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains)/DID^» (Didcot Parkway - next trains) then you are perfectly entitled to use it. Trains making longer journeys (Swansea, Carmarthen, Taunton, Exeter, Plymouth, Penzance etc) also tend to be more heavily reserved than shorter workings (Cardiff and Bristol T M).

Yes, most of the trains I get on are the HST's and I'd already clocked some time ago that one carriage (as you say, carriage C) is usually left reservation free. However, it still means that unless you are one of the first 60 odd people without a reservation to get to the train then you are stuffed. One reservation-free carriage on a train containing 5 standard class carriages is a joke. As stated before, ALL carriages should be reservation free and it should be first come, first served. But then of course FGW^▸ (First Great Western) wouldn't get the extra profit they are making by charging for seat reservations.

For people who regularly travel on these trains, they will know that trying to find which seats reserved from stations futher down the line ends up in a complete bun fight with everyone else trying to do the same and in *most* cases seats are actually reserved from Paddington anyway so it's just pure luck if you happen to stumble across one that's reserved from a station after your destination point.

Sorry if this sounds like a rant but the situation with extortionate train prices and overcrowding is problem enough as it is without FGW adding more insult to injury for commuters by seemingly favouring and giving seat priority to customers who make one-off journeys.

[grahame]

I have certainly shared your frustration, GaryM (welcome to the forum, by the way), walking through what seems to be the entire standard class section of a train and finding seats occupied OR with those white tags on them, and knowing / suspecting that a half will remain unoccupied, and the other half will be occupied for the post part by people who are paying far, far less than I am.    It's not a problem unique to FGW^▸ (First Great Western) - I've had the same thing (except that the reservarions are automated screens!) on cross country.

What causes so many seats to be left open?  I suspect it's because people who book flexible single / return journey tickets can get (and arr offered) a seat reservation free of charge ... and yet they have bought a flexible ticket precisely because they don't know which train they'll be using!  Personal view - it's very hard indeed to run any system that does not make even a small charge at the point of use without it getting distorted.  "Market forces" and all that ... and you could say that it applies to free elements of the NHS, bulk emailing, and senior bus passes too.

What's the solution? Or is this indeed something that should be solved; are others happy with the status quo? My own logic says "add a one pound seat reservation fee".   It should be possible for this to be done in a way that's cheap to administer with modern online technology, and cancellation via the online computer could be done up until half an hour before the train starts its journey.  You could then cut the number of reserved but unoccipied seats, shave a little of the fares to compensate (ha, ha!) and offer reservations to season ticket holder such as GaryM.

We have some people around here with access to figures / data.  Is there anyone who can give us:

a) Data on what proportion of seats are reserved, and how that goes up and down by route, time and date?

b) What proportion of seats are reserved for each type of ticket, and in each case what percentage of the reserved sets are actually occupied by the people who hold the reservation. 

c) How many people travel on the right train but sit in a seat which is not the one they have reserved, and how many sit in a reserved seat to which they are not entitled?  How many people miss the train that they have a reserved seat on because of failing connections, and have to travel unreserved on the next available service?

The answers aren't going to change anything - but they'll certainly help to explain to me and perhaps GaryM and others why the current, apparently unfair, system is in place.

[GaryM]

Is it fair to say a passenger travelling to Swansea for example that a 2hr plus journey should also include a gamble on getting a seat?

Why not? If those people want to guarantee getting a seat then they should make sure they're on the concourse when the train is announced so they have a chance of getting on it as early as possible to increase their chances of a seat. Either that or stand until a seat becomes free further down the line like commuters without the luxury of seat reservations have to. Why should commuters and one-off journey payers be treated any differently?

Some commuters actually travel for even longer than I do so are you suggesting that if a commuter travelled to and from Bath every day then as a travel ticket holder they should not necessarily be entitled to a seat whereas someone making a one-off journey to Bath should always be guaranteed a seat

[inspector_blakey]

First off, FGW^▸ (First Great Western) actually doesn't charge for seat reservations if made at the time you book your ticket, so they make very little money from them (a ^5 charge is levied if a reservation is made after the time of booking, but this is not really a money spinner, more of a disincentive to discourage passengers from making multiple reservations for a journey and only using one). In fact one of the ironies of the current fares system is that the cheapest tickets (Advance) are only available for use on the booked train and so come with a compulsory seat reservation.

Through the accidents of history, the HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) out of Paddington are serving two markets: commuters and long-distance travellers (contrast this with the train service out of King's Cross, where many of the anglo-Scottish services are first stop York, so no good if you're commuting to Peterborough). Every single intercity TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) offers seat reservations on long-distance services for obvious reasons: as unpleasant as it might be to stand for a short "commute", a journey of several hours (Swansea 3 hours, Carmarthen 4 hours, Penzance even longer) is different kettle of fish.

I would suggest that it's not a reasonable request for FGW to withdraw seat reservations completely for the benefit of commuters given that they have to offer an "intercity"-style level of service for longer journeys.

It's true that many of the commuter operators out of London (e.g. First Capital Connect, London Midland etc) don't as a rule offer seat reservations. However, FGW does operate a non-reservable commuter train service out of Paddington, the former FGW link/Thames trains commuter services to Oxford: these offer a similar level of service to other commuter companies and are not usually reservable.

[devon_metro]

Its also worth noting that after something like 10 minutes, if a seat reservation has not been taken, you are entitled to sit there.

[inspector_blakey]

A few observations of my own:

There are certainly lots of seat reservations that are not taken up: this is partially due to people with flexible tickets making a reservation but then travelling on a different train (which they are perfectly entitled to do). Another big factor is that many people are either too idle or too confused to find their allocated seat when they do have a reservation, and just plonk themselves down in the first available space.

If you want flexibility - turn up and catch the next train when you need it - then it is unreasonable to expect a guaranteed seat, especially for journeys of modest length.

In the evening peak HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) seem to empty out significantly at Didcot, leaving lots of empty seats as the train heads further west. This illustrates one of the paradoxes of the commuter railway, which was a problem for British Rail and others before them: mile for mile, season ticket holders pay significantly less than other customers because of the huge discounts they get compared to buying a separate ticket every day. However, they travel at the peak times. To ensure all commuters had a seat would require a vast amount of rolling stock that only made one or two journeys in revenue-earning service every day: it would spend the rest of the time either running round empty or sitting in a siding, costing money all the while. That's why it's simply not economic for every commuter to sit.

Finally, d_m is right, a seat reservation if not taken up ceases to be valid as soon as the train has departed from the station at which the passenger was supposed to board; some train managers are very conscientious about removing reservation labels that have not been taken up, others less so.

[Btline]

(a) First a confession - a few weeks back, I bought an Off-Peak return to London and reserved a seat on the 1751 for the way back. Why? Because I knew that the train would be full of Reading and Oxford commuters, and I wanted a seat for my whole 2.5 hour journey! It's free and easy to do. So it did. Is this selfish?

However, I started my Tube journey back to Paddington too late. (left only half an hour to get from Westminster, going via Baker Street) I rushed up the stairs onto the concourse at 1752 and the train was gone from the departure boards. However, as an Off-Peak return holder, I was entitled to get the 1821! (my ticket - as usual - wasn't checked anyway )

So that evening, perhaps a commuter was deprived of a seat on the 1751. I feel a little guilty, but I am certain it did not stay empty for long!

Of course - had their been a charge for the reservation, or if the rules meant I was tied to that train (i.e. like an Advance fare) I might not have reserved..... No - I would have got the Tube much earlier!

I agree with Graham.

(b) On TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) webistes powered by "TheTrainLine" (inc. FGW^▸ (First Great Western)) you have to choose your service, even if you're not buying an Advance. On the "MixingDeck" websites (LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise), SN, SE, NXEC^▸ (National Express East Coast)) you don't have to pick a service. The website makes it clear - only select a service if you want to reserve a seat. If FGW adopted the MixingDeck, I am sure the amount of empty reserved seats would decrease.

(c) Sometimes, I don't sit in my reserved seat - if it is backwards facing/ poor view etc., and I can see a vacant seat which suits my preferences, I move.

However, I always remove the card from the seat. (except on XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) - but on XC no-one takes any notice of reservations/they're not working)

Sorry for the long post - I think that ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies See - here) should look at this problem.

[GaryM]

I wasn't actually aware that the flexible ticket booking system required a seat reservation to be booked even if that person might not travel on that particular train. If this really is the case then it's complete madness but does go some way to explaining why there is so much confusion as to why booked seats sometimes remain empty other then the obvious one of the person just missing the train. I agree that flexible tickets should NOT be allocated any reserved seats...surely that is the whole point of flexibility as already quite rightly pointed out.

The "grace period" whereby if a reserved seat hasn't been occupied within a certain time of the train leaving the "reserved from" station is also good to know but from past experience I have seen people turning up to their seats well into the journey (and sometimes not even until after the next stop) due to the fact they couldn't even get down the aisle to them because of overcrowding. I think even knowing this unpublished rule I would feel somewhat awkward potentially arguing with someone who has booked a seat I am sitting in. Easier just to avoid any conflict, give up the seat and spend the rest of the journey standing while cursing at FGW^▸ (First Great Western) for the chaos, confusion and frustration they cause with their mass seat reservation shambles.

I know it's impossible for everyone to have a seat with the amount of people that use these trains and I don't dispute the fact that people will have to stand (which I don't mind doing from time to time) but it should be those people who got to the train last or late who should have to stand.

I know I might be starting to sound like a broken record but at the end of the day we all pay our money to use the same services so I think that we should all be entitled to fair and equal treatment whether we are commuters or not. IMO^▸ (in my opinion), seat reservation eligibility for certain types of fare payers only DOES NOT provide a fair and equal service for everyone. If scrapping seat reservations is not an option then maybe FGW should start providing an equal service to their biggest fare paying customers (commuters) by allowing them to reserve seats too.

So how about it FGW? (assuming someone from FGW actually reads this forum)...either scrap seat reservations altogether or give your travel card holders (commuters) the ability to ring up and reserve seats like your other customers can...

[Super Guard]

To be fair, as TMs^‡(resolve) should be doing regular ticket checks, would it be too much to have a quick glance at reservation labels and remove those where no-one is sitting and the boarding station for the reservation has passed?  I've never worked a train so I may be asking too much, just a thought?

Also Grahame, your idea is good re: being able to cancel the reservation beforehand, however it would need to be a 90 minute deadline for the cancellation to go through the system and then time for the reservations to be printed out/put on the train - in my experience reservations are usually automatically printed out approx 65-75 minutes before departure.

[Chris from Nailsea]

Thank you for those very useful tips, flamingo! 

[Zoe]

However, I always remove the card from the seat. (except on XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) - but on XC no-one takes any notice of reservations/they're not working)

I remember back in the BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) days warnings on the cards of fines for anyone doing this.