Is it Y Bermo or Abermaw (Barmouth)

[whole diary]

[ellendune]

I caught a train from the station to the north of Morfa Mawddach today.  The town council is called "Barmouth Town Council / Cyngor Tref Abermaw", the Welsh version of the sign on the level crossing by the station (Barmouth South) uses the name Abermaw, the station entrance says Croeso y Abermaw, the on board train messages say list the station as Abermaw.

SO why do the timetables and the station name boards use the Welsh name 'Y Bermo'?

[stuving]

This was being disputed in 2018, when the Welsh Language Commissioner chose Abermo, according to this from the Cambrian News.

Town’s Welsh name disputed
12th July 2018

AN HISTORIAN has challenged the proposed Welsh name for a popular seaside town.

The Welsh Language Commissioner has published a list of 3,000 Welsh place names with the standardised Welsh spellings, most of them uncontroversial.
However, one particular standard spelling riled a local historian after the Welsh name for ‘Barmouth’ was listed as ‘Abermo’.

Hugh Griffith Roberts, a well-known source of local history in the area, wrote to the Welsh Language Commissioner to complain about the spelling as he believed it should be ‘Abermawddach’ or ‘Abermaw’ as it has been known historically.

He suggests that ‘Abermaw’ has been the given name of the area since the days of Dafydd ap Gwilym, as seen in his poem ‘Maddeuant’ which was released around 1330.

He also suggests that changing the spelling to ‘Abermo’ would be the equivalent of renaming Aberystwyth as Aberyst or Aberhonddu as Aberhon.

‘Abermo’ has subsequently been withdrawn from the definitive place names list for future consideration.

Manon Davies, who was involved in constructing the list of standardised place names, explained in an email to Mr Roberts (translated from Welsh) that the Welsh Language Commissioner was merely acting on the information they had already received.

“Local authorities are ultimately responsible to decide which place-names forms they use, but the commissioner’s aim is to work with local authorities, the Welsh Government and Ordnance Survey to ensure consistency, accuracy of historiography and accuracy through Wales,” she wrote.

“The Welsh form of Barmouth is difficult, as the number of possible variations shows: Abermo/Abermaw/Y Bermo/Bermo/Abermawddach.

“The aim of standardising place names is to form one form as a standard form for public administration while recognising the importance of keeping the variations as local forms."

[grahame]

Abermawddach

Mouth of the Mawddach - as opposed to Morfa Mawddach - Marsh of the Mawddach

[Mark A]

Morfa Mawddach... the name took me straight back to clear evenings in late May and June, several of us travelling courtesy of a 0.75 pence Cambrian Coast evening rover from Aberystwyth, a picnic in one of the Dee Emm Yews with their characteristic fragrance and if we were lucky the blind at the front raised.

I think Morfa Mawddach was the furthest we could get so it was off the train there for a few minutes to enjoy the rumbles from the viaduct as the outbound service crossed it and the return service approached. Also, two consecutive evenings at Dovey Junction, and the sight, on both evenings, of a barn owl quartering one of the fields there before coming to rest on the same railway fence pole bordering the track.

Mark

[Ralph Ayres]

Even what I would view as an uncontroversial decision to settle officially on just one of Criccieth/Cricieth or Wrecsam/Wrexham hasn't yet happened, so I'm not surprised this one is causing problems. There are many others where the difference is just a letter or two, and using only one of them really would make departure screens, next train displays and road signs much simpler without confusing anyone.  It's odd that standardising on Porthmadog rather than the English/GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) usage of Portmadoc was achieved way back in 1974 apparently, yet many others still cling on.

[Red Squirrel]

…courtesy of a 0.75 pence Cambrian Coast evening rover…

Less than a penny for an evening rover seems astonishingly cheap. And with the farthing change, presumably you’d be off to the Palace Theatre to see George Formby, whilst chomping your way through three stone of monkey nuts?

They don’t know they’re born today…

[ellendune]

This was being disputed in 2018, when the Welsh Language Commissioner chose Abermo, according to this from the Cambrian News.

It seems that Abermaw won this argument because that is the name the local authority and the Ordnance Survey use.  The railway seems to use it most of the time as well so why has the timetable and station nameboard not caught up?

[Mark A]

…courtesy of a 0.75 pence Cambrian Coast evening rover…

Less than a penny for an evening rover seems astonishingly cheap. And with the farthing change, presumably you’d be off to the Palace Theatre to see George Formby, whilst chomping your way through three stone of monkey nuts?

They don’t know they’re born today…

Good point, let's make that £0.75, which correction made me further reflect on Cambrian Coast line prices. It was quite recently (I think around 20 years back) that travel costs at the southern end of the line were ridiculously cheap - I was surprised at a Dovey Junction to Tywyn fare of around £2:10. (It's now £5:40, which is still a lot of railway for not very much...). Sadly, I've not travelled that line since a  distinctive and wildly congested end-of-August-bank-holiday long distance trip southbound in around 2015.

Mark

[Mark A]

Also, Barmouth... does anyone recall the distinctive short stretch of track at the south end of the station, the track underlaid by an inverted brick arch? Never did find out what that was about, nor have I ever seen a photo of it. And didn't take one myself.

Mark

[grahame]

Also, Barmouth... does anyone recall the distinctive short stretch of track at the south end of the station, the track underlaid by an inverted brick arch? Never did find out what that was about, nor have I ever seen a photo of it. And didn't take one myself.

Mark

There was a long extra excursion platform / south facing, and to the south of the level crossing with an extra track. I would conjecture it might have been to form a gully for hot water and other things that might drop from a long distance train parked for the day and being serviced there?

[Chris from Nailsea]

There are many others where the difference is just a letter or two ...

Just one letter can make all the difference, indeed.

My own local station caught Michael Portillo out when he referred to us as Nailsea & Blackwell, when he visited Tyntesfield on one of his railway excursions. 

[Red Squirrel]

There are many others where the difference is just a letter or two ...

Just one letter can make all the difference, indeed.

My own local station caught Michael Portillo out when he referred to us as Nailsea & Blackwell, when he visited Tyntesfield on one of his railway excursions. 

Well you can imagine how amusing we find it here when outsiders unwittingly add an ‘L’ to to Montpelier, making ‘Montpellier’. You wouldn’t think we’d be able to tell by ear, but we can.

[ellendune]

This week the trains were well used, especially the school time services which were standing room only from Tywyn to Barmouth. 

You can see why.  It takes 1.25 hrs to drive from Barmouth to Tywyn (it would take longer on a service bus) and 32 minutes on the train even stopping at nearly every farm gate!  It would have been a very long school day when the bridge was shut. 

By the way the Talyllyn Railway has a 20% discount offer for those arriving at Tywyn by train - the helpful ticket seller at Barmouth told us about it when we booked our ticket to Tywyn.

The ticket seller was not a railway ticket office but an independent shop in the station building that also sells tickets.

[grahame]

This week the trains were well used, especially the school time services which were standing room only from Tywyn to Barmouth. 

I've seen it like that from Harlech in the afternoon too - where two trains pass each other and leave shortly after the schools which are by the station come out. With the younger children supervised onto the trains - no doubt picked up by parents at the Tygwyns and Llandanwgs of the line.

[stuving]

Well you can imagine how amusing we find it here when outsiders unwittingly add an ‘L’ to to Montpelier, making ‘Montpellier’. You wouldn’t think we’d be able to tell by ear, but we can.

... especially if they are Welsh.