Car Parking, APCOA (in this case, Oriental Road, Woking) - a cautionary tale

[whole diary]

[Clan Line]

Sounds like a job for BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page)'s Watchdog team   

No ........ go to ITV.    "Mr Ellis vs APCOA^▸ (Car parking company used at GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) - controlled stations in the area)"..................peak hours on Saturday evening !

[grahame]

What I have learned ...

1. I am far from the only one to have had issues like this, and it is best described as a systemic problem. Thank you so much to others writing here and in private.

2. Even after reading the unedited (apart from removal of the vehicle registration) reasons for my appeal being dismissed, members here feel that the penalty fare notice in these circumstances is unfair.

3. Options have been suggested as to how I may take it further.  For the moment, though, I had already offered to pay the due amount for car parking on 1st November and that offer remains open.  And I have emailed the address given by APCOA^▸ (Car parking company used at GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) - controlled stations in the area) explaining my dis-satisfaction and asking them to take a further look. I await there response, and until I receive it or it becomes overdue, I am putting those options carefully to one side as possibilities if worst comes to worst.


Of note - and a different car park operator - but I am aware and informed of the car parking arrangements put into place at Melksham Station in 2021, including how the revenue was to be split.  As former TransWilts CRP^▸ (Community Rail Partnership) Community Rail Officer, my name had also been left as the contact on their App and web site (years out of date) and I received a number of communications from people who had been issued with penalty charges. These calls educated me further into the way these thing work.  As of this month, the Station Car Park has become a public car park operated by Wiltshire Council rather than TransWilts CRP, so any user experiences there are now historic.

[Electric train]

Pay only the parking fee due. Don't pay any penalty. Railway land covered by byelaws so they'd have to take you to magistrates court. Highly unlikely.

I agree, on the bases that they have accept that you intended to pay so pay the parking fee due and provide you with the evidence.

[TaplowGreen]

Maybe worth seeking some Legal advice Graham.

[grahame]

Maybe worth seeking some Legal advice Graham.

Noted, yes, should I consider pursuing the issue on principle rather than pragmatically choosing to go along with the notice, and that's assuming that APCOA^▸ (Car parking company used at GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) - controlled stations in the area) don't get back to me with a "right" solution.  At the moment, I await their reply to my email, noting https://www.apcoa.co.uk/fileadmin/user_upload/APCOA_Complaints_Policy.pdf says

Our complaints policy is an opportunity for customers to tell us when we might have fallen short of expectation, and how we can put things right.

[bradshaw]

 Came across an interesting one this morning while meeting for coffee in Bridport. Someone had received a penalty notice for overstaying at Morrisons. They had got the local MP^▸ (Member of Parliament) to help look into it.
It seems that the car park is run by Euro Car Parks. Shoppers can use it free of charge for visiting the store with a two hour limit and no return for three hours.
However Euro Car Parks have an alternative for non shoppers with 50p per hour increments to a maximum of £2.00 for 24 hours. This is pay by phone only or by app. It is not advertised as far as I can see and I only came across it by chance on the Parkopedia website and the app by searching the Euro Car Park site.
Any challenge to a penalty notice need the Morrisons receipt as evidence.
I would think that very few know the rules in this car park!

[ChrisB]

People are useless at reading instructions and expect everything to "work out of the box". In car park terms, there are instructions on a poster somewhere within the car park, usually as you enter or exit (to the station/shop etc). Always worth  a look.

[grahame]

I'll give them top marks for speed in answering

Dear Graham,

Thank you for your email dated 27th January 2024 which has been passed to me to investigate and respond.

After a full investigation, I can confirm APCOA^▸ (Car parking company used at GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) - controlled stations in the area) enforce Woking Station Oriental Road on behalf of South Western Railways. Unfortunately, APCOA are not the payment provider for this location. Payment for this location is to be made via RingGo. Unfortunately, your complaint regarding the system will need to be made to RingGo directly as it is their system your complaint relates to. Unfortunately, RingGo is not operated by APCOA, it is a separate payment provider.

As no payment was made for parking on this date, the vehicle was parked in breach of the Terms and Conditions of parking. As a result of this, the notice was issued correctly. After checking the system, I can confirm the notice was appealed and your appeal was rejected with the option to pay the notice at the discounted rate of £50 or further to appeal to POPLA. After checking the system, I can see the appeal to POPLA was rejected and the notice is now outstanding at the full amount of £85. As the notice was correctly issued and your appeal to POPLA has been rejected the £85 is outstanding.

Kind regards,
Emma Millar
Complaints Handler
APCOA Parking UK^▸ (United Kingdom)

As I understand it, that's rather like me complaining to GWR about a cancellation and asking for Delay Repay, and being told to contact Hitachi because they failed to provide a train to run the service.   

[bradshaw]

It seems that you have to go through all of this again but directed to Ring Go, with copies to APCOA^▸ (Car parking company used at GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) - controlled stations in the area) to hold the penalty payment.

[ChrisB]

Or even to SWR^» (South Western Railway - about), copies to both APCOA^▸ (Car parking company used at GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) - controlled stations in the area) & RingGo - it is the SWTR that contract APCOA. Can you find out who has contracted RingGO for the payment solution? Is that SWR too, or APCOA? If the latter, you have them by the short & curlies as RinGGo has failed in their contract.

[JayMac]

Buck passing buckers.

I predict RingGo and SWR^» (South Western Railway - about) will continue the buck passing. Car parking penalties are a racket that all parties (except the customer) benefit from.

Were it me I'd ask them to take me to court. APCOA^▸ (Car parking company used at GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) - controlled stations in the area) can't as the land is under railway byelaws and they have no standing, being merely the agent of the land owner. So it's down to SWR who manage the land on behalf of Network Rail.

APCOA want their pound of flesh as it's the only way they make a decent return for their shareholders. Their small cut from the parking tariff and the 'management' fee from the landowner doesn't cut it for them. The penalty charges are their main income.

Court would be my preferred option. Even if you lose APCOA and SWR get nothing. In the Magistrates Court any costs award wouldn't cover their actual expenses in taking you to court. Any fines and victim surcharge goes to the state. That's why the private parking pirates and those they act for so rarely do court for parking 'transgressions' on railway land.

[Kempis]

All I will say is this: if someone as tech-savvy as grahame can be caught out, what hope for the rest of us?

[Trowres]

Let's have a trawl through what's available, starting with South Western Railway:

https://www.southwesternrailway.com/travelling-with-us/at-the-station/car-parking

You can pay for parking at our stations by downloading the RingGo app. Once it’s set-up on your smartphone, you’ll get lots of great features such as text messages to tell you when your parking is running out and extending your stay virtually without having to return to your car. You can also book for parking online or calling RingGo on 01256 80 28 04.

Daily parking tickets are also available from self-service ticket machines in stations.

SWR^» (South Western Railway - about)'s T&C at https://www.southwesternrailway.com/-/media/files/travelling-with-us/at-the-station/conditions-of-parking-motor-vehicles-and-bicycles/conditions-of-parking-motor-vehicles-and-bicycles-december-2022.pdf

If you are in charge of any motor vehicle, bicycle or other conveyance you must not park where charges are made for parking without paying the appropriate charge at the appropriate time in accordance with instructions given by South Western Railway.
Any motor vehicle, bicycle or other conveyance used, left or parked in breach of this condition may
incur liability of payment of a penalty and may be clamped or removed. The owner of the vehicle,
bicycle or other conveyance shall be liable to South Western Railway for the cost incurred by South
Western Railway in clamping, removing, storing or disposing of it.

On the  SWR website, no mention of APCOA^▸ (Car parking company used at GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) - controlled stations in the area) that I could see.

[Trowres]

Now onto RingGo:
 
Don't bother with https://myringgo.co.uk/howitworks, as it starts with "Create an account" and appears to be dealing with the app method of payment.

I couldn't see anything intended as an explanation of the pay-by-phoning method (its as if they don't want you to use it  ). So, I went to the site's T&C section. https://myringgo.co.uk/static/onlineterms. It isn't clear if these terms apply to all transactions or just interactions via the website (only the URL has the "online" qualifier. Anyway...

If you use instant access (access without account registration) you have accepted our Terms of Service by using instant access. You will have been made aware that you can access and read these Terms of Service at the following URL https://www.myringgo.co.uk/onlineterms and our office address (Ground Floor East, Maplewood, Chineham Business Park, Basingstoke, Hampshire, RG24 8YB) and that you can request a copy of these terms is sent to you.

You acknowledge that the use and availability of our parking payment systems is highly dependent on the operation of ‐ for example ‐ your mobile device, the internet, your GPS receiver and other resources you can use to access our services. If you are unable to access and use our parking payment systems, for any reason, you, and not we, are required to use alternative payment methods to pay for parking or there may be a risk that you could be liable for additional parking fees and parking tickets.

You can access our parking payment systems and related services via one of the tools made available to you, including smartphone, personal web page, text messaging, interactive voice recognition (IVR) by telephone and mobile/in‐car applications. A description of our tools, including instructions how to use them, can be reviewed here https://www.myringgo.com/howitworks.

(Spoiler: the link works but it does not include relevant instructions for all "tools" including telephone access).

Certain ways to access our parking payment systems do not require pre‐registration of an account, but allow instant access. Where you use instant access, we will create an instant account based on the telephone number or payment information used for the relevant access to our parking payment systems. Instant access is provided at our discretion and may be refused.

You are responsible for providing all of the necessary and correct details for your parking action, such as vehicle number plate and the correct location code. Your parking action will be automatically processed on our parking payment systems on the basis of these details. The details you provide about your parking action are key for us to correctly process your parking fees. You alone are responsible for providing us with the correct details for your parking action and you will be responsible for paying any penalty charge or parking fee issued as a result of incorrect parking action details.

Please take note of the following: We are not responsible for verifying whether your parking action details are correct. We emphasize that you must read the instructions before you start using our parking payment systems, as incorrect use might lead to penalty charges, incorrect payments or other consequences.

You may choose to receive confirmation messages that your parking action is still active or to confirm that your parking session has commenced. In addition you can elect to receive a reminder advising you when your parking session is due to end. We emphasize that your parking action still remains your responsibility. You acknowledge that receipt of the reminder depends on the availability of your network and can be interrupted/delayed. Any additional costs relating to these reminders will be charged simultaneously with all other charges. Costs for these services are detailed https://www.myringgo.co.uk/parkinglocator.

So, it appears that you have to pay extra ( 10p at the moment ) to ensure that you have successfully paid for parking... or is there a final stage in the voice payment process that tells you? Obviously Grahame didn't get that far, so does anyone else on the forum know how a successful RingGo telephone payment ends?

The addition of charge for confirming the transaction reminded me of current moves to outlaw "Drip pricing" - see

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-laws-set-to-ban-mandatory-hidden-fees-from-online-shopping-saving-money-for-consumers

. Perhaps RingGo wouldn't be affected as their hidden fee is "optional"... maybe some words to MPs^▸ (Member of Parliament) during the progession of the bill would be useful? I'd argue that getting a receipt isn't optional.

I think my main line of attack on this one, though, would be SWR^» (South Western Railway - about). This is the organisation that has made a decision to offload car park payment onto organisations with a distinctly unhelpful approach.

[grahame]

So, it appears that you have to pay extra ( 10p at the moment ) to ensure that you have successfully paid for parking... or is there a final stage in the voice payment process that tells you? Obviously Grahame didn't get that far, so does anyone else on the forum know how a successful RingGo telephone payment ends?...

I WAS offered the opportunity to pay more for texts - I think (but it's 3 months ago now) twice - once to be texted a receipt, and once to be texted (what was it?) a reminder of when my parking was about to expire.  And, yes,  declined the optional "drip payment" stuff.

I *have* heard from other friends who use the system via the App and are registered and it works for them;

All I will say is this: if someone as tech-savvy as grahame can be caught out, what hope for the rest of us?

Yeah - and I appreciate the comment.  I think I was unlucky with the cutting out, and I don't know why it did. My memory is of standing around in a storm in a car park that felt a bloomin long way from the actual station and doing an "oh shit" when I realised that I could not pay in cash, could not pay contactless, and had to either try and find and download an App, or do that darned thing by phone.   I did that latter and then move on, thinking no more of it than a slight positive that I had been forced into trying a system and having the experience.