Very lucky escape...

[whole diary]

[IndustryInsider]

Thank you.  To give a comparative, is there any advice for drivers being trained on IETs^▸ (Intercity Express Train)?   Thank goodness I don't think we have yet had such a major tree hit, have we?  Hope we never do but the law of averages suggests that with so many of them running around ...

No advice that I am aware of as such.

IET’s have a quite long thin corridor to the door that leads into the saloon or kitchen (depending which way round it is).  That would offer better in cab protection than a HST^▸ (High Speed Train), and if you had time to get through that door then much better protection. 

That is in addition to the protection afforded by a stronger front end.

[stuving]

I believe it was as a result of the crash in Aberdeenshire a couple of years ago where the unexpectedly poor performance of the HST^▸ (High Speed Train) stock made it clear that their time was up, despite the investment that had been made in refurbishing them into 2+5 sets for Scotrail and GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway).

Despite all the comments, that isn't true; the HST's crash performance was generally good. The final report on the Carmont accident said this about the damage to the power car:

487 The cab was subjected to severe impact conditions. The speed of impact was significantly beyond the collision speeds for which even modern cabs are designed to provide protection for occupants.
 ...
Given the severity of the collision conditions, significant damage to this or any other cab’s structure was inevitable. 

I think people had noticed, in that report, a lot of analysis and discussion of the changes in standards with some said to have the potential to have made the outcome worse. But only a few were found to be relevant, and as many other issues were common with newer trains. Most of these were secondary ones, such as the sharp corners on the folding tables (now not permitted), or the splintering of windows into long sharp shards when the bodyshell is twisted (an issue with current standards).

The only important factors were those that would have held the train close to the track and all the vehicles in line. That means bogie retention and anti-climb features between vehicles, introduced since the HSTs were designed. It also covers the rather surprising lack of guide rails at this bridge on a curve - some have been installed since.

This latest collision with a tree is more likely to provide relevant evidence about the safety of HST cabs than Carmont. You would need to compare it with newer trains hitting similar trees at similar speeds. Even then, quantifying such things is inevitably inexact, and incidents are quite rare, so the results, viewed objectively, might not support any useful conclusion.

[TonyK]

Once 4 car and 6 car networkers were available, then the old 8 car slam door units that has been used for decades were declared to be dangerous.

Slam door trains were safe, but far from idiot proof. I suspect they were not deemed unsafe, in spite of incidents, simply to hide the fact that the replacements had been postponed.

[bradshaw]

A long but informative thread on Twitter about the HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) and the cab.

It gives a more balanced account of what needs to be done but looks at the timescale needed for this.

https://x.com/reasonablescot1/status/1740415486842868215?s=61&t=VlafMC5gF9tidw36b1Y8JQ

Judging by the posts on Twitter it has stirred up a hornets nest!

[Mark A]

Once 4 car and 6 car networkers were available, then the old 8 car slam door units that has been used for decades were declared to be dangerous.

Slam door trains were safe, but far from idiot proof. I suspect they were not deemed unsafe, in spite of incidents, simply to hide the fact that the replacements had been postponed.

Trying to think whether any of my contemporaries as children or teenagers were instructed how to use slam doors and what to avoid, either by parents or by railway staff. Apart from the safety advertisements, sort of not... they were just a feature of life that had always been present.

One issue was the number of doors on London suburban trains meaning that no one was very far from one - something that had both and up and a down side. An inappropriate exit was close at hand, but perhaps if a fellow passenger needed to intervene they, also, were close at hand.

But people tend not to intervene: a tale told to me of a somewhat inebriated passenger on a train off the North London Line that, in the winter dark, drew to a halt close to Richmond station, at a time when station lighting was not as it is now.

He got to his feet, opened the carriage door and stepped into the dark, disappearing onto the trackbed. A pause, before his head and then the rest of him reappeared as he clambered back in, closing the door, profusely apologetic to his fellow passengers, he then crossed the carriage and apparently before anyone else moved, thinking he'd stepped out on the wrong side for the platform, opened *that* door and once again stepped into thin air.

Mark

[TaplowGreen]

A long but informative thread on Twitter about the HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) and the cab.

It gives a more balanced account of what needs to be done but looks at the timescale needed for this.

https://x.com/reasonablescot1/status/1740415486842868215?s=61&t=VlafMC5gF9tidw36b1Y8JQ

Judging by the posts on Twitter it has stirred up a hornets nest!

One wonders why the Scottish Government haven't looked to procure replacements earlier?

[TonyK]

A long but informative thread on Twitter about the HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) and the cab.

It gives a more balanced account of what needs to be done but looks at the timescale needed for this.

https://x.com/reasonablescot1/status/1740415486842868215?s=61&t=VlafMC5gF9tidw36b1Y8JQ

Judging by the posts on Twitter it has stirred up a hornets nest!

One wonders why the Scottish Government haven't looked to procure replacements earlier?

A simple matter of priorities. There's no money left after the independence spending and court costs for arguments with the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) government.

[TonyK]

Trying to think whether any of my contemporaries as children or teenagers were instructed how to use slam doors and what to avoid, either by parents or by railway staff. Apart from the safety advertisements, sort of not... they were just a feature of life that had always been present.

One issue was the number of doors on London suburban trains meaning that no one was very far from one - something that had both and up and a down side. An inappropriate exit was close at hand, but perhaps if a fellow passenger needed to intervene they, also, were close at hand.

But people tend not to intervene: a tale told to me of a somewhat inebriated passenger on a train off the North London Line that, in the winter dark, drew to a halt close to Richmond station, at a time when station lighting was not as it is now.

A former work colleague of mine, sadly now a late friend, had rather poor eyesight despite driving to work more often than not because of the then infrequent rail service. When not using the car, he came in on the train from Yatton to Bedminster. In those days, the trains were slam door. On the way home, it seems that everyone except him heard the announcement that because of engineering work on the down line, the train would stop on the opposite side at Yatton. While the others disembarked safely, my friend opened the door and suffered what physicists term a rapid decrease in potential energy. He wasn't badly hurt, and made his way to the rear of the train, to a point where he could get back onto the platform. I am told he made quite an entrance to the Firebox, covered in grease, cut by brambles, and trailing toilet paper from a shoe.

[TaplowGreen]

A long but informative thread on Twitter about the HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) and the cab.

It gives a more balanced account of what needs to be done but looks at the timescale needed for this.

https://x.com/reasonablescot1/status/1740415486842868215?s=61&t=VlafMC5gF9tidw36b1Y8JQ

Judging by the posts on Twitter it has stirred up a hornets nest!

One wonders why the Scottish Government haven't looked to procure replacements earlier?

A simple matter of priorities. There's no money left after the independence spending and court costs for arguments with the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) government.

Of course. They prioritised trans above trains.

[Electric train]

A long but informative thread on Twitter about the HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) and the cab.

It gives a more balanced account of what needs to be done but looks at the timescale needed for this.

https://x.com/reasonablescot1/status/1740415486842868215?s=61&t=VlafMC5gF9tidw36b1Y8JQ

Judging by the posts on Twitter it has stirred up a hornets nest!

One wonders why the Scottish Government haven't looked to procure replacements earlier?

A simple matter of priorities. There's no money left after the independence spending and court costs for arguments with the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) government.

That's not quite correct, the Scottish Government are spending quite a lot of money on electrification, they confirmed £140M spend in Sept 2023.  The class 253/4 were only a stop gap until electric / bimode are available

[grahame]

Trying to think whether any of my contemporaries as children or teenagers were instructed how to use slam doors and what to avoid, either by parents or by railway staff. Apart from the safety advertisements, sort of not... they were just a feature of life that had always been present.

I was brought up on 4EPB slammers - don't recall ever being taught - just picked up from parents.

Times HAVE changed - I recall being on platform 4 in Swindon when there were only a handful of HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) (slam door) still running and watching a couple of young ladies panicking as the other doors to let people on had been opened but theirs hadn't.  Had to show them how to use a handle  

[Oxonhutch]

And all commuter trains arriving at Waterloo in the high peak were empty by the time the train came to its final standstill.

[old original]

It's alleged that a member of the public 'phoned Network rail about this fallen tree 10 minutes before the collision...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/12/31/train-scotland-storm-gerrit-driver-not-warned-hit-tree-line/
(might be behind a paywall)

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/train-driver-who-cheated-death-in-storm-gerrit-was-not-warned-of-tree-on-line/ar-AA1mhhBo?ocid=msedgntp&pc=ASTS&cvid=f9dc373d90f34bc5ae129e302783b0c5&ei=12

[TaplowGreen]

It's alleged that a member of the public 'phoned Network rail about this fallen tree 10 minutes before the collision...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/12/31/train-scotland-storm-gerrit-driver-not-warned-hit-tree-line/
(might be behind a paywall)

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/train-driver-who-cheated-death-in-storm-gerrit-was-not-warned-of-tree-on-line/ar-AA1mhhBo?ocid=msedgntp&pc=ASTS&cvid=f9dc373d90f34bc5ae129e302783b0c5&ei=12

Saw this being discussed on the RailUK forum too - going to be a busy New Year for the RAIB^▸ (Rail Accident Investigation Branch) it seems!

[ChrisB]

And all commuter trains arriving at Waterloo in the high peak were empty by the time the train came to its final standstill.

And other London Terminii - I & many others used to do this back in the 70s. First through the ticket barrier before the train came to a standstill. It was nothing unusual back then & very few, if any, failures to remain upright on stepping onto the platform.