Call for rail fare simplification

[whole diary]

[TaplowGreen]

It's interesting and somewhat ironic that recently there was much clamour for fare simplification as a precursor to closing ticket offices in recognition of the fact that around 88% of tickets are purchased by other means.

Now that efforts are being made to achieve this, enthusiasm seems to have waned somewhat, and alternative suggestions are somewhat vague/locally focussed.

I cannot imagine that the Treasury will agree to any solution that involves more of a contribution from the taxpayer given that revenue is already substantially reduced and subsidy much higher - therefore I'd suggest any large scale reform/simplification will need to be revenue neutral, or designed to generate more revenue, perhaps  the cost of flexibility will become much higher?

Sometimes I guess we need to be careful what we wish for.

I hope a solution can be reached which is as palatable as possible to all concerned.

[eightonedee]

Personal opinion – I think that all these proposals are starting from the wrong place.

Most rail passengers want to take a return journey – out and back form the same place to the same destination. They might want to reserve a seat, but probably would rate flexibility above this. If you are on a business trip, you are probably going to a meeting, and who wants to spend half the meeting worrying about whether you will miss your train? (as in my experience, many do), and if it’s a leisure trip most would welcome the flexibility of a choice of trains. Who wants to have the hassle of wondering if there’s a train 70 minutes after one nominated on a ticket?

So – make the core fare the off-peak return. I can see the merit in an additional charge for peak time travel. If you want to reserve a seat, then an option to pay for this. If you don’t make that train then you lose your payment, but if it’s because the train is cancelled or short-formed, or missed due to a late running connection, then there’s an automatic right to get a refund. No rules about not breaking your journey, short stopping (if the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) is dumb enough to charge more for an intermediate station, the customer can buy the cheaper fare for the longer journey without penalty) and no “only valid via X” rules. Any revised permitted routing guide to have maximum reasonable flexibility. The ticket is valid for 30 days from date of first travel, to allow weekend/overnight/holiday travel.

The starting point in setting the fare under this regime should be the cheapest current off-peak return between the starting point and destination. If you do want one way only, it’s half that fare. Nothing else, save that TOCs can make special offers, but these (apart from price) to be on these terms, unless “rover tickets” giving unlimited travel in a specified area.

So – one basic fare for a return off-peak. A peak time supplement, a supplement for reserving a seat and half the fare for a one-way journey and that’s it. Apart from this, it’s valid for 30 days from first travel, and journeys can be broken at the passenger’s absolute discretion, and they can choose a route to suit them. It would still mean there would have to be the extensive lists of what is a reasonable route, but there ought to be some clear rules, such as doubling back if a stopping service is cancelled or if the stop is missed by the TOC is permitted without penalty.

Split ticketing to remain possible, to give TOCs (or whoever really sets fares) an incentive to change fares to remove such anomalies.

Is that all pie in the sky/unrealistic/fundamentally flawed/misses one or more practical problem? 

[IndustryInsider]

It's interesting and somewhat ironic that recently there was much clamour for fare simplification as a precursor to closing ticket offices in recognition of the fact that around 88% of tickets are purchased by other means.

Now that efforts are being made to achieve this, enthusiasm seems to have waned somewhat, and alternative suggestions are somewhat vague/locally focussed.

I cannot imagine that the Treasury will agree to any solution that involves more of a contribution from the taxpayer given that revenue is already substantially reduced and subsidy much higher - therefore I'd suggest any large scale reform/simplification will need to be revenue neutral, or designed to generate more revenue, perhaps  the cost of flexibility will become much higher?

Sometimes I guess we need to be careful what we wish for.

I hope a solution can be reached which is as palatable as possible to all concerned.

I don’t think enthusiasm has waned at all.  Most of us just want a well thought through set of proposals that are fair to as many people as possible, hopefully better for some, and not forced on train operators to implement against what they themselves might know about their markets.

In other words not an exact repeat of what happened with the rushed, ill thought out, and ultimately unworkable, ticket office closures farce to which you refer.

As a passenger, do you have any thoughts on the LNER^» (London North Eastern Railway - about) trial?

[grahame]

I don’t think enthusiasm has waned at all.  Most of us just want a well thought through set of proposals that are fair to as many people as possible, hopefully better for some, and not forced on train operators to implement against what they themselves might know about their markets.

In other words not an exact repeat of what happened with the rushed, ill thought out, and ultimately unworkable, ticket office closures farce to which you refer.

Indeed.  So much trust in that the  "powers that be" will do something sensible has been lost that many of us start from a basis of fearing the worst whenever a proposal is put forward.   We fear a repetition of the ticket office debacle. Very sad.

As a passenger, do you have any thoughts on the LNER^» (London North Eastern Railway - about) trial?

Probably a very good topic for a poll amongst our (very biased because it's very well informed) membership.

[plymothian]

Fares simplification is always going to lead to a rise one way or another, because simplification it's not simple.

Starting point: Anytime fares - always will be expensive as it's the nature of the beast.  Now there is an argument for shrinking the peak period, no journey starting at 04.30 in the morning should be classified as peak!  If "peak" became, say 07.00-09.00, then someone leaving Plymouth on the 04.55 is arriving into Paddington at 08.35, bang on peak passenger flow in a now heavily loaded train.  So do you add graduated fares that take account of this peak period? 

Similarly do we keep a (universal?) evening peak period?  Currently someone travelling to Cornwall can travel on an off-peak ticket on a "peak train" as it takes longer to get there, do we make them wait?  Do we abolish evening peak and that same person is now unable to board a train at 17.00 due to evening commuters?

Simplifying off peak.

We have 1 off peak ticket that starts at a universal time (say 09.00).  Problems:  day trips become more expensive as all OP^▸ (Original Poster / topic starter) tickets are valid for return for 30 days or longer trips become more expensive as you need to buy 2 singles as returns are only valid for 1 day. 
Someone travelling from Penzance to Scotland arrives in Scotland after 8pm as they have to start their journey later.  You can already see pitfalls in a Melksham - Paddington journey, where the 10.02 with an arrival at 11.35 jumps straight to super off-peak, as the previous train at 08.02 is peak.

1 ticket 1 journey.

Already happening where some off-peak tickets in Devon have been abolished and the only available is an Anytime.  Ticket is naturally more expensive compared to what it was.

Simplifying/abolishing routing

Currently, I can buy a ticket from Plymouth to Manchester routed Any Permitted or via Hereford.  If we abolish routing, can I then have a jolly via Southampton, Canterbury, Durham...?  Making every route any permitted would still need a routing guide to determine what is permitted and what would that be?  Any sensible route between two stations or just the quickest, in both cases cheaper fares on more round about routes would disappear?

Pence per mile

Someone travelling from Exeter to Portsmouth Arms is now paying nearly the same as someone travelling Exeter to Taunton.  And Cardiff - Holyhead is now slightly more expensive than London - Preston.  How much will the longest journey on a single train (734 miles) be?!  Admittedly, from an end-user perspective, weighting could be added to more heavily used routes and no-one would be any the wiser.

1 train, 1 journey

A frequent complaint is over-crowding and "overselling" tickets.  So do we go compusory reservations and abolish walk-up fares?  It would be a nightmare in practice but if that's what the will of the loudest people is.

[TaplowGreen]

It's interesting and somewhat ironic that recently there was much clamour for fare simplification as a precursor to closing ticket offices in recognition of the fact that around 88% of tickets are purchased by other means.

Now that efforts are being made to achieve this, enthusiasm seems to have waned somewhat, and alternative suggestions are somewhat vague/locally focussed.

I cannot imagine that the Treasury will agree to any solution that involves more of a contribution from the taxpayer given that revenue is already substantially reduced and subsidy much higher - therefore I'd suggest any large scale reform/simplification will need to be revenue neutral, or designed to generate more revenue, perhaps  the cost of flexibility will become much higher?

Sometimes I guess we need to be careful what we wish for.

I hope a solution can be reached which is as palatable as possible to all concerned.

I don’t think enthusiasm has waned at all.  Most of us just want a well thought through set of proposals that are fair to as many people as possible, hopefully better for some, and not forced on train operators to implement against what they themselves might know about their markets.

In other words not an exact repeat of what happened with the rushed, ill thought out, and ultimately unworkable, ticket office closures farce to which you refer.

As a passenger, do you have any thoughts on the LNER^» (London North Eastern Railway - about) trial?

As you say it's a trial so I will await to see the results against measures of success as I would with any trial  before forming an opinion - test and learn is generally a good method so I am thinking it's probably something the whole network will be looking at as a model for the future - it certainly seems to be using flexibility to determine price and doing away with dozens/hundreds of confusing options which seems to be the method most people recognise.

I think the hesitancy amongst a lot of people now that the simplification they have clamoured for is now starting to become reality may be driven by the dawning realisation that "simpler" does not necessarily mean "cheaper" - probably the opposite, especially if flexibility is required.

Suspect it will also look to get rid of the anachronisms and workarounds, split tickets etc.

I'd imagine that the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) attitude at the moment is largely ambivalent given that the drop in their revenue is being made up by the taxpayer, and they're certainly not bothered about their customers as long as the money is coming in from whatever source, however the majority of taxpayers who use trains rarely if ever are also entitled to value for their money.

Worth bearing in mind too that whatever simplification is decided upon, it will almost certainly see the resurrection of ticket office closures given that this was one of the major reasons for postponing them.

To pick up one other point - I wouldn't support charging for reservations, but if you're going to, Train Managers would need to take a much more robust attitude to customers sitting in seats which others have paid to reserve.

[IndustryInsider]

I personally think that if one fare - an off-peak single - is retained with broadly current time restrictions and priced sensibly, but valid on day of purchase only, then much of the LNER^» (London North Eastern Railway - about) scheme would make sense: Single leg pricing and four different fares, one fully flexible, one restricted to a certain train, and two in between with varying restrictions.

If that happened you’d still have a much smaller number of fares, but not a huge leap in price for the freedom to use any off-peak service.

Though I am slightly dubious as to the usefulness of the flexi fare, and very suspicious of any ideas the current government are behind.

I also very much doubt any scheme will get rid of all workarounds.

[Fourbee]

The railcards' situation is something that could realistically be tackled; perhaps all the currently available ones consolidated into a National Railcard (to the benefit of the 31-59 age group that aren't covered by the area specific/other qualifying criteria railcards). I know other suggestions have been put forward on old forum threads, but implementing them should be "easier" in the short term than sorting out the fares database.

[didcotdean]

Early government discussion called this scheme "demand based pricing" which at least was a more honest description than "simpler". There may only be three fare names but there are dozens of actual fare levels from the cheapest to the most expensive across these. With the elimination of the off peak fare, the cap on Advances & 70 min "flex" throughout the day is now the Anytime fare. Expect this to come into play at busy times.

[ChrisB]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68009768
Ticket machines at train stations charge passengers more than double than what they would cost online for some journeys, according to analysis.

Consumer group Which?'s research said same-day rail tickets were 50% more expensive on average at stations.
..............................continues.....................

Anyone surprised?

Errr, yes. But in Which's rather crass research.
Everyone knows that TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) are limited in the tickets that they can sell, and that they can't split tickets either.

So compare online with ticket offices, and they'll get a completely different answer.

Neither did they recognise/accept or otherwise mention that the one online resource they bothered to check (ok, admittedly the most popular) charge an admin fee that no TVM does to my knowledge - and this ought to have appeared in their report.

Which? are usually much better - their standards are definitely slipping!

[ChrisB]

Fares simplification is always going to lead to a rise one way or another, because simplification it's not simple.

Starting point: Anytime fares - always will be expensive as it's the nature of the beast.  Now there is an argument for shrinking the peak period, no journey starting at 04.30 in the morning should be classified as peak!  If "peak" became, say 07.00-09.00, then someone leaving Plymouth on the 04.55 is arriving into Paddington at 08.35, bang on peak passenger flow in a now heavily loaded train.  So do you add graduated fares that take account of this peak period? 

No need - base the fare on the *arrival* time at the destination - 0835 in Paddington is obviously 'Peak'. The same train alighting at Newton Abbot is quite likely to be earlier than their morning peak. So set 'peak' to be arriving 0700-0930 at all stations and you have your peak time in the morning.

Similarly do we keep a (universal?) evening peak period?  Currently someone travelling to Cornwall can travel on an off-peak ticket on a "peak train" as it takes longer to get there, do we make them wait?  Do we abolish evening peak and that same person is now unable to board a train at 17.00 due to evening commuters?

My bug-bear is any evening peak starting before say 1600. Sorry. And I'd finish it at 1830 too. So, set this time on *departure* times, 1600-1830.

Separate discussion on which stations attract a peak fare - many rural stations for example where there is no demand obviously don't need them. Ditto journeys made contra-peak against the flow - its only comparatively recently that they have introduced peak fares on flows against the peak flow.

Simplifying off peak.

We have 1 off peak ticket that starts at a universal time (say 09.00).  Problems:  day trips become more expensive as all OP^▸ (Original Poster / topic starter) tickets are valid for return for 30 days or longer trips become more expensive as you need to buy 2 singles as returns are only valid for 1 day. 

Two singles - but singles become 50% of the OP return, thus 2 singles = the cost of the current OP return. Current OPDR fares are generally on shorter trips and therefore there would be a small price rise on those fares where there is a discount over the OP return. Some fares would have to rise to equate to break-even & This is my 'sacrifice'.

Off-peak is Monday-Friday before 0700, 0930-1600 & 1830-end of service plus all weekend. Further discussion on Friday peaks, (& definitely its evening peak) as to whether to continue it.

No change otherwise in Peak & OP Singles - available at those days & times, any TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company), break of journey permitted.

Someone travelling from Penzance to Scotland arrives in Scotland after 8pm as they have to start their journey later.  You can already see pitfalls in a Melksham - Paddington journey, where the 10.02 with an arrival at 11.35 jumps straight to super off-peak, as the previous train at 08.02 is peak.

Not sure what you meant here - but my suggestion kills off Super off-peak fares. They don't exist everywhere now, and can be replaced by the flexi-single, but this NOT to be quota-controlled. Plus quota-controlled Advance fares as now on longer flows.

So in my world - Anytime, Off-peak (both flexible), the flexi (semi-flex) & Advance. So 4 types. Advances on flows that have them currently, so not on commuter flows & short distances. And Peak times that are the same *everywhere* that needs them. No 1500 some places & 1600 others & 1530 others.

Simplifying/abolishing routing
Currently, I can buy a ticket from Plymouth to Manchester routed Any Permitted or via Hereford.  If we abolish routing, can I then have a jolly via Southampton, Canterbury, Durham...?  Making every route any permitted would still need a routing guide to determine what is permitted and what would that be?  Any sensible route between two stations or just the quickest, in both cases cheaper fares on more round about routes would disappear?

Agreed you can't abolish routing - Brits would work out routes allowing you to visit vast chunks of the UK^▸ (United Kingdom)
It's a difficult one & would need studying. The fastest route definitely, along probably with the shortest (should that be different) - plus any routes that can be shown to be majorly used currently.

Pence per mile

Someone travelling from Exeter to Portsmouth Arms is now paying nearly the same as someone travelling Exeter to Taunton.  And Cardiff - Holyhead is now slightly more expensive than London - Preston.  How much will the longest journey on a single train (734 miles) be?!  Admittedly, from an end-user perspective, weighting could be added to more heavily used routes and no-one would be any the wiser.

It's fair way of doing this, *providing* the different areas of the UK have fares associated with that areas median earnings. That is highest in the southeast, lowest elsewhere, thus discounted down from the fares per mile in the SE.

Then Peak, off-peak, flexi all set at a specific pence-per-mile in each area, plus Advances set at TOC-decided price-points.

1 train, 1 journey

A frequent complaint is over-crowding and "overselling" tickets.  So do we go compulsory reservations and abolish walk-up fares?  It would be a nightmare in practice but if that's what the will of the loudest people is.

No. Trains are not planes where for safety, you *have* to be seated. Some better way of showing when seat reservations for any service are all taken. Those wanting a seat then see this & have to book another service if they want to guarantee a seat.

I'm also no fan of a National Railcard. If you are, then just cutting all fares by say, 30%, accounts for the discount less a tad for the cost of the card that then needs no associated admin.

[Fourbee]

I'm also no fan of a National Railcard. If you are, then just cutting all fares by say, 30%, accounts for the discount less a tad for the cost of the card that then needs no associated admin.

If you abolish railcards and implement that in a revenue neutral way, does the holder of a freshly purchased 3-year railcard continue to get (further) discounts or (like the Covid era) you say, hard luck it's effectively expired early? Perhaps they could be refunded pro-rata at the cut-over date?

[ChrisB]

It'd have to be a (part) refund - but the national card will not happen anytime soon

[Mark A]

My bug-bear is any evening peak starting before say 1600. Sorry. And I'd finish it at 1830 too. So, set this time on *departure* times, 1600-1830.

Travelling into Kent from Bath in the early nineties, I seem to recall that BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) imposed an evening peak restriction for tickets leaving Bath Spa, which led to an immediate modal switch from rail to road for that journey.

It can't just have been me as that particular evening peak restriction quickly evaporated, thankfully and it was back to the train - including a particularly timely service that came up from further west, left Bath at 16:10, stopped at Reading only, and, I also think I recall, took 1 hour ten minutes up to Paddington.

Something I definitely recall was around 1990, stepping aboard a morning HST^▸ (High Speed Train) at Paddington on the return half of an off-peak ticket and finding that for a (reasonable) additional charge, an at-seat full english breakfast was available to standard class passengers.

After sitting down at an unoccupied table-for-four bay, a couple sat down in the other pair of seats, they were from Essex and were making the trip at short notice and were ticketless. They bought full price return travel tickets from the train manager, not batting an eyelid at the cost of those which was considerably more than the cost of my off-peak. After which, away we all went to the West, in the company of each other, tea, and a well presented fry-up.

Mark

[Timmer]

Travelling into Kent from Bath in the early nineties, I seem to recall that BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) imposed an evening peak restriction for tickets leaving Bath Spa, which led to an immediate modal switch from rail to road for that journey.

It can't just have been me as that particular evening peak restriction quickly evaporated, thankfully and it was back to the train - including a particularly timely service that came up from further west, left Bath at 16:10, stopped at Reading only, and, I also think I recall, took 1 hour ten minutes up to Paddington.

Something I definitely recall was around 1990, stepping aboard a morning HST^▸ (High Speed Train) at Paddington on the return half of an off-peak ticket and finding that for a (reasonable) additional charge, an at-seat full english breakfast was available to standard class passengers.

After sitting down at an unoccupied table-for-four bay, a couple sat down in the other pair of seats, they were from Essex and were making the trip at short notice and were ticketless. They bought full price return travel tickets from the train manager, not batting an eyelid at the cost of those which was considerably more than the cost of my off-peak. After which, away we all went to the West, in the company of each other, tea, and a well presented fry-up.

Mark

Sounds like the West Country Pullman which ran from May 1988 until the early 90s between London and Paignton leaving I think around mid morning with the first stop Bath. The return, to begin with, used to run non stop Bath to London around 4pm.

As time went by, more and more stops were added, the Pullman name, along with the restaurant, dropped and it became just another regular service.

Today, the morning London to Paignton and return runs via Berks & Hants and, until recently ran under the The Torbay Express name.

Without wishing to derail the thread, anyone know why GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) decided to drop naming certain train services?