Project Churchward - Future regional fleet for the west

[whole diary]

[anthony215]

A few of you may know GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) been looking for ways to replace the entire dmu fleet as well.as possibly emus in the Thames valley.


GWRS MD has been quite vocal about particularly about getting Bristol TM^‡(resolve) wired to GWR could use a emu fitted with batteries on the Cardiff to Portsmouth hbr service.

Other UK^▸ (United Kingdom) TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) especially northern and chiltern are struggling to get replacement parts for the BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) dmus.

The DFT^▸ (Department for Transport) have now put a tenders out for replacement units including for GWR.

Looks like they are looking at units with 24m carriages  for  GWR hopefully 5 carriage units for the Portsmouth hbr service.

I doubt very much it would be Hitachi that would get the contract. My money is probably on Alstom or STadler

[eightonedee]

Presumably "Churchward" after the noted Great Western CME of the opening years of the last century?

He, as one of the great innovative railway engineers would be turning in his grave at the current state of the railway vehicle construction industry in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom).

[IndustryInsider]

Finally some detailed proposals, even if over 5 years away.  Here’s hoping for some or all to be provided by Stadler, and for cascades from other operators to help out in the meantime.

He, as one of the great innovative railway engineers would be turning in his grave at the current state of the railway vehicle construction industry in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom).

It’s a lot better than it was ten years ago when there was just Derby.

[JayMac]

Class 75x/23x FLIRTs, Now!

Although why specify 24m per carriage? Surely the main focuses should be the traction package and seating capacity. Stadler FLIRTs of varying lengths and traction types would be, in my opinion, the perfect fleet to order. FLIRTs are already a very flexible, modular design. A 'next gen' update following on from the sucessful Greater Anglia and Transport for Wales fleets would be perfect for the diverse needs of the greater western network. As much commonality as possible would be best for future proofing should there be expansion of electrification. Losing diesel 'power packs' is much better than having to order another new fleet down the *ahem* line.




Edit note: Thread title updated to 'Project Churchward - Future regional fleet for the west' to better describe the topic.

[Noggin]

A few of you may know GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) been looking for ways to replace the entire dmu fleet as well.as possibly emus in the Thames valley.

News to me, thanks for the tip.

Yes, the unrefurbished Turbos are looking very tired these days and the Welsh FLIRTS look very nice.

Any idea on whether that might include closing St Philip's Marsh and building a new depot somewhere else? Seems very quiet these days.

My presumption was/is that an unvoiced objective of the Temple Meads roof project is to have a solid structure to which electrification hardware can be fixed and that once they were reasonably far along, they'd pass the 3D models to electrification designers and propose wiring to Parkway as 'the thin end of the wedge'.

 

[TonyK]

Some big decisions needed on electrification here. Surely, we can't have yet another stop-gap fleet of anything still needing diesel?

[anthony215]

I've heard talk of wires to Bristol TM^‡(resolve) via both Filton and Bath along with wires to Swansea.
A tri-mode 5 carriage unit be ideal for Cardiff to Portsmouth hbr and even Cardiff to penzance.  Heard other electric islands were being looked at

I heard they were trying to get wires from Swindon to Severn tunnel junction and Westerleigh jct too.

[grahame]

"Project Chuchward" has been vaguely around for a while; good to see some flesh being put on the bones.  I seem to recall plans being to order a new fleet of 17x units  ( a dozen at 4 cars each) to run Portsmouth / Cardiff, but then that got canned with GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) electrification costing rather a lot and releasing the turbos.

I have seen some very sensible Network Rail long term aspirations for further electrification and use of battery / alternative fuels on remaining lines to the exclusion of diesel traction in due course.   What is lacking in my mind is the work being done on the ground to have this actually happen - perhaps pump priming is going on behind the scenes or unnoticed, but I'm darned if I have seen it!

It would make sense for the "next stage" to complete electrification from Chippenham via Bristol Temple Meads to Bristol Parkway and Patchway (overhead) , and from Basingstoke, Southampton and Eastleigh to Salisbury (perhaps 3rd rail) to allow Cardiff / Portsmouth service to make use of batteries from Bathampton to Salisbury (or Wilton?).  Heavy freight would/will provide an impetus to have electrification into the Westbury area too ...

[broadgage]

Some big decisions needed on electrification here. Surely, we can't have yet another stop-gap fleet of anything still needing diesel?

I support electrification, but remain of the view that all new electric trains should have a battery or a diesel engine to run basic on board services or proceed at much reduced performance when the wires come down.
Having incurred the cost and weight penalty, then this battery or engine could be used to a very limited extent in passenger service.
Electrification should be cheaper and simpler with the odd short gap in problematic locations such as inadequate clearances under bridges.
In most cases trains could coast through such gaps, but a secondary power source seems prudent. Also valuable for diversions, to Waterloo for example, or excursions to heritage railways.

[Bob_Blakey]

.....Heard other electric islands were being looked at.....

How's about this for a completely bonkers idea? Electrification of the (entirely self-contained) Devon Metro route between Exmouth & Paignton on which the principal 150/2 rolling stock is approaching it's fortieth birthday.

[eightonedee]

It would make sense for the "next stage" to complete electrification from Chippenham via Bristol Temple Meads to Bristol Parkway and Patchway (overhead) , and from Basingstoke, Southampton and Eastleigh to Salisbury (perhaps 3rd rail) to allow Cardiff / Portsmouth service to make use of batteries from Bathampton to Salisbury (or Wilton?).  Heavy freight would/will provide an impetus to have electrification into the Westbury area too ...

....and to Oxford (better still Banbury as well so that all Thames Valley main line and "Oxford Canal Line" services can be run by those Electrostars that always seem to be hanging around the Reading Depot).

[Electric train]

The next major National timetable change is 2029 to 2031, the railways next 5 year Control Period CP8 (CP7 is 2024-2029).  The DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) via the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company), the TOCs have been in discussion with Network Rail.  The TOCs have had to produce a report to the DfT what is required rolling stock renewals, example are the Networkers (465/6 165/6 etc)

Change of rolling stock leads to a change in infrastructure -
Train care facilities,
Stations
Traction power (substations, Grid supplies OLE^▸ (Overhead Line Equipment, more often "OHLE") / third rail), 
Signalling (roll out of ETCS^▸ (European Train Control System) ie in cab signalling) 
Track layouts

Some of this will rollover into CP9

[stuving]

According to today's Sunday Times, "GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway), the West Country operator, this weekend announced its plan for 100 battery trains to serve Bristol, Devon, and Cornwall, as well as routes including Cardiff to Portsmouth and Exeter to Penzance." (I can't see anything public from GWR, but then putting that out over a weekend would be odd anyway.)

The article as a whole is a rehash of previous arguments about avoiding OLE^▸ (Overhead Line Equipment, more often "OHLE") and the need to decarbonise within the lifetime of any new stock, but that bit does claim to be factual. It quotes the engineering director (Simon Green) as saying he expects they will agree with the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) to issue a tender by the end of the year.

There is also a bit about Siemens being a "battery train supplier", based on the entry into service of their Desiro Verve. They seem confident the product is now going to get a lot of interest from all the TOCS, which is fair enough. However, you might wonder whether "it can recharge from the domestic grid rather than relying on high-voltage lines, and be fully charged in 20 minutes" means anything.

[Noggin]

Much as I'd rather see proper OLE^▸ (Overhead Line Equipment, more often "OHLE"), based on a few things I've read recently, it actually seems quite reasonable.

Can't see the full article but suggests things have gone well with the Greenford trial, which was designed to prove that everything could be reliable and the fast charging systems work well - see https://railway-news.com/uk-gwr-commences-fast-charging-battery-powered-train-trial/.

IIRC^▸ (if I recall/remember/read correctly), the fast chargers use a standard 3-phase mains supply (400V AC) which is relatively quick and easy to install, with far fewer H&S^▸ (Health and Safety) headaches than OLE. The time to recharge was advertised as 3 1/2 minutes, which if reliable, should mean that the technology is certainly suitable for most of the GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) branches from Windsor to St Ives.

As for the longer distance services, there's an interesting trial between Hitachi and Transpennine at the moment, replacing a single diesel power pack in an 802 with a similar weight battery power pack (Nissan Leaf batteries in case you were interested) which is recharged from the overheads and braking. They reckon the distance off the wires is 80 to 100km, which isn't enough for Exeter to Penzance, but would enable fiddly stretches like Dawlish to be left unwired, and with more efficient batteries and replacing fuel tanks, perhaps the 120ish km between Bristol and Weymouth could be reasonable. More at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pg8J0ONy3Go in case anyone is interested.

[broadgage]

I am a bit doubtful about claims made for ultra-fast charging from a standard 400 volt, 3 phase supply.
The greatest load that can be connected to an existing substation is often about 315 amps or 400 amps, presuming that the substation has enough spare capacity. If insufficient capacity is available then a new substation will be required.

More than 315 or 400 amps will require a new substation, that could if desired be at the higher voltage of 690 volts (three phase, 4 wire systems at 400 volts phase to neutral and 690 volts between phases are catching on in industry, so the transformer will be readily available.)

400 amps at three phase 400 volts is about 276 kilowatts, perhaps a bit more in practice as the actual voltage supplied tends to be at least 415 volts.
276 kw will take at least a few hours to charge a reasonable size battery train. In the case of a 2,000kwh battery then 276 kw input will take about 9 hours, fine for overnight charging but limited for charging in service.

Use of multiple batteries each intended for an electric car may have the merits of competitive price due to the mass production of these batteries.