Delay / Repay - discussion on cancellations

[whole diary]

[NickB]

This is a bit of a highjack post and may not be the right place to ask it, but it is relevant to the large number of cancellations currently experienced in the Thames Valley…

(How) Does Delay Repay work if I arrive at my departure station and find so many cancellations that I just turn around and go home? I wont have swiped in and so there is no record of my attempt to travel, but the cancellations will have changed my plans and I have been unable to travel.

Thanks

Edit - split from http://www.passenger.chat/14689 - grahame

[sunshinehappyness]

Are you expecting a BACS transfer in your favour for a train you didn't take and there is no record of you trying to take it?  If that works out for you, let me me know, as there are plenty of places I've never been that have have frequent travel delays.  Christ, if that delivers I could get a salary and not leave my front door.

Anyway, back to work.

[grahame]

Are you expecting a BACS transfer in your favour for a train you didn't take and there is no record of you trying to take it?  If that works out for you, let me me know, as there are plenty of places I've never been that have have frequent travel delays.  Christ, if that delivers I could get a salary and not leave my front door.

Anyway, back to work.

It's "Delay/Repay" rather that "Delay/Pay" - and the system is designed to give you money back, and not money you didn't spend in the first place.  So I don't see it giving you any more money than you had in the first place. 

There are opportunities at times for people to be dishonest and get refunds when they have travelled, but not on (or not attempting / planning to be on) the late or cancelled services, but claiming when you should not is illegal and could get you in very hot water indeed. Don't do it!

And, yes, I know, sunshinehappyness that you wrote in jest.  I 'need' to state the official line, and (for once) keep mum about ways the system will catch you out if you try to abuse it.

[NickB]

At the risk of going further down a rabbit hole and acknowledging that Admins may wish to move this part of the conversation to a Delay/Repay topic I do find this very interesting and in particular the unintended outcomes for TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) and passengers

In my opinion there should be a method of compensation for a passenger who is unable to reach their destination due to cancellations as well as for those who got waylaid enroute.  Arguably what is more annoying - arriving 15mins late or not being able to get there at all?

There have been many times in my commuting career that I have arrived at the station and found disruption so severe that I have quit and gone home. Does Delay/Repay not cover that eventuality at all?  A cancellation is arguably a very long delay.

If GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) only pay out for delays and not cancellations then does this lead to the unintended outcome of TOCs cancelling more intermediate stops to try and arrive on time, albeit with fewer of the passengers who wanted to travel that day?  Certainly at Maidenhead I see a lot more ‘not stopping today’ services so is this a partial cause of that?

[stuving]

There have been many times in my commuting career that I have arrived at the station and found disruption so severe that I have quit and gone home. Does Delay/Repay not cover that eventuality at all?  A cancellation is arguably a very long delay.

The logic behind your suggestion is that a season ticket holder has a paid ticket and a form of reservation for travel every day, if not for a specific train.

[ChrisB]

Compensation is payable only if you have entered into a contract (bought a ticket). Otherwise anyone & everyone would claim that they wanted to make a journey but didn't (how do you prove that?)

[NickB]

Well that’s kind of my original point - from a customer service perspective why is a delay of 15/30mins worse than not being able to travel at all ? 

Is there any negative outcome for a TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) in cancelling services/connections, thereby removing the chance of having to repay for delayed customers?

[grahame]

Well that’s kind of my original point - from a customer service perspective why is a delay of 15/30mins worse than not being able to travel at all ? 

Is there any negative outcome for a TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) in cancelling services/connections, thereby removing the chance of having to repay for delayed customers?

I'm confused by this discussion (and, yes, likely to split it off to "fare's fair" too).

I have been delayed by a cancellation - most recently the 16:01 from Severn Beach was cancelled there - it only started from Avonmouth due to the binliner getting in the way.  The dozen or so people caught the 17:02 instead.  My personal journey was to Melksham and (or course) the planned connection missed. Delay / repay successful.

I had a contract to be carried, and was compensated.  Should I have only turned up at Severn Beach to get my ticket as I travelled, no (re)payment would have been due.  Really a level playing field - repay is about giving you back money you have paid, and if you haven't paid there is nothing to give back.

Now you could argue that compensation (and not just repayment) would be due from a transport provider if they failed to provide a service - and within that argument you might compensate only if a contract to carry was in place, or you might compensate when someone had planned to buy a ticket on an unlimited capacity service.  In my own view, a dangerous path to go down - best covered by insurance.

A further view from me - a 15 to 30 minute delay is not usually worse than a complete cancellation. But "usually".  I recall a Sunday trip, Melksham to Weymouth, change at Westbury.  But the train was late at Melksham and as we ran up the stairs and out of the subway at Westbury, the Weymouth service pulled out.  Service gap - nothing else in those days towards Weymouth for 4 hours.  I would rather the train had been cancelled at Melksham rather than wasting a morning on the trip to Westbury and back.  Westbury is lovely, but lacks beach, ice cream sellers, harbour, ...

[plymothian]

You can get a refund for an abandoned journey on a ticket that has already been paid for (generally less an admin fee, but is sometimes waived in times of disruption). 

Strictly speaking, under the Regulation (EC) No 1371/2007 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 23 October 2007 on rail passengers’ rights and obligations article 17:

4.   The passenger shall not have any right to compensation if he is informed of a delay before he buys a ticket, [or if a delay due to continuation on a different service or re-routing remains below 60 minutes]

Now you could argue that compensation (and not just repayment) would be due from a transport provider if they failed to provide a service - and within that argument you might compensate only if a contract to carry was in place, or you might compensate when someone had planned to buy a ticket on an unlimited capacity service.  In my own view, a dangerous path to go down - best covered by insurance.

Under Chapter II Article 32

1. The carrier shall be liable to the passenger for loss or damage resulting from the fact that, by reason of cancellation, the late running of a train or a missed connection, his journey cannot be continued the same day, or that a continuation of the journey the same day could not reasonably be required because of given circumstances. The damages shall comprise the reasonable costs of accommodation as well as the reasonable costs occasioned by having to notify persons expecting the passenger.

2.The carrier shall be relieved of this liability, when the cancellation, late running or missed connection is attributable to one of the following causes:

(a)circumstances not connected with the operation of the railway which the carrier, in spite of having taken the care required in the particular circumstances of the case, could not avoid and the consequences of which he was unable to prevent;

(b)fault on the part of the passenger; or

(c)the behaviour of a third party which the carrier, in spite of having taken the care required in the particular circumstances of the case, could not avoid and the consequences of which he was unable to prevent; another undertaking using the same railway infrastructure shall not be considered as a third party; the right of recourse shall not be affected.

...means you are potentially entitled to subsequent losses for an abandoned journey.

[ellendune]

You may be able to at the moment, but will you after this governments sunsets vast swathes of EU^» (European Union - about) law at the end of this year?