Ticket Office closures - Penny wise, Pound foolish? = Railfuture press release

[whole diary]

[Bmblbzzz]

I can buy split tickets from my local station's TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine).

What I can't buy though, currently, is Rovers or Rangers.

I was thwarted in my attempt to buy a Celtic at Montpelier the other day. Most disappointing.

What about a Wanderers or Albion? 

I look forward to being able to get a City Rover from Parson Street to Ashley Down.

[Bmblbzzz]

I have a suspicion that the impetus behind closing ticket offices comes in large part from the PRM^▸ (Persons with Reduced Mobility) assistance requirements ORR^» (Office of Rail and Road formerly Office of Rail Regulation - about) and DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) have placed on TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company). In particular, having to cope where there is no advance booking/notification needed. The rules allow for a delay before staff can be found, but don't say how long that should be. Any attempt to define that, even a vague one, will show up that there are not now enough staff on platforms to provide this.

So, if ORR & DfT do apply pressure to perform as stated in the PRM rules, TOCs will be faced with needing more staff, not fewer. Being able to move all ticket office staff out of their little glass boxes is the obvious way to do this. All it takes is some digital magic to allow a patrolling staff member to do what now needs a terminal sitting on a counter. Oh, and a simpler fares structure would help (but we can't wait that long can we?). And a lot of retraining. And ...

Interesting. I'm slightly cynical about assistance requirements being enforced to that extent, but I do think staff on the platform are more useful than staff behind a window – provided they're able to sell tickets, provide assistance, answer random queries, etc. If these tasks end up being specialisms, then you probably might as well stick the ticket staff in a ticket office. And of course you'll still need on-train staff for stations that have no staff.

[CyclingSid]

Penny wise, Pound foolish - fairly normal for organisations run by accountants? [Duck]

So does the restricted availability of tickets by type, station etc mean they will be able to increase their revenue from penalty fares.

[Do the two threads on this subject need to be merged, as any distinction between them appears to be blurred?]

[ChrisB]

With the removal of ticket offices, many penalty fare stations will also go....there will be many fewer options to buy the ticket you want going forward....

[Electric train]

With the removal of ticket offices, many penalty fare stations will also go....there will be many fewer options to buy the ticket you want going forward....

I doubt it, more likely an increase in the number of penalty stations

[ellendune]

I am not sure about the increase in staff on the platform now the minster says there will now be job cuts.  Am I misremembering or did they say there would be no job cuts, but that is RMT^▸ (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers)'s fault for some reason.  Can you believe anything this government says?

[infoman]

small item on BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) spotlight local news thursday 6th july at 18:30pm

[ChrisB]

With the removal of ticket offices, many penalty fare stations will also go....there will be many fewer options to buy the ticket you want going forward....

I doubt it, more likely an increase in the number of penalty stations

How do you come to that conclusion?

You can only be penalty fared if you don't buy your ticket when you have been given the ability to do so in the manner that you choose - whether that's cash, card, warrant (if you have one of course) and the fare you want to purchase (rover, ranger, railcard). If you can't buy it, you can't be penalty fared.

[Witham Bobby]

For selling tickets, TVMS are at least as good as staff, in most situations. But what they can't do is answer other questions, such as "How do I get to the bus station?" or "I've bought a ticket to Old Newton rather than New Oldton by accident, can I change it or do I have to buy another?". Most importantly, they can't make a station look inhabited.

My experience of TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) is that even with a bit of knowledge of ticketing and the way the machine works, it takes several times longer to get a ticket at a machine than at a booking office window with a knowledgeable clerk serving tickets

[Electric train]

With the removal of ticket offices, many penalty fare stations will also go....there will be many fewer options to buy the ticket you want going forward....

I doubt it, more likely an increase in the number of penalty stations

How do you come to that conclusion?

You can only be penalty fared if you don't buy your ticket when you have been given the ability to do so in the manner that you choose - whether that's cash, card, warrant (if you have one of course) and the fare you want to purchase (rover, ranger, railcard). If you can't buy it, you can't be penalty fared.

Ticket (or some form of authority to travel) vending machines at stations or purchase online.

After all it is an offence to travel on a train without a valid ticket, with tightening budges from the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) ToCs will be wanting to maximise revenue

[ChrisB]

DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) are looking for cost savings, NOT maximising revenue. That is the sad thing about all this.

We know that TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) don't retail all fares that ticket offices do. I will want to buy a railcard with cash along with my ticket....no penalty fare even if I get to the end of my journey & still can't purchase that railcard. No penalty fare currently unless they change the T&Cs on the railcard. They've done away with authority to travel passes.

However, I think it was SWT^▸ (South West Trains) who have said that they are developing some form of pass that you can access for an amount of money that will allow you to travel to a major hub to obtain your railcard/warrant ticket/you name it that can't be got from a TVM - and buy it there without being out of pocket. Maybe cash-wise, but not time-wise! JayMac, I think that was your post earlier? No other TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) has identified this.

[grahame]

DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) are looking for cost savings, NOT maximising revenue. That is the sad thing about all this.

Double-sad that they don't even seem to be looking merely to reduce supporting funds needed - in other words it's on the alter of costs, irrespective of damage done to revenue or revenue potential.  And where's the wider economic and social impact in this?

From The Guardian - Thu 6 Jul 2023 15.11 BST

Rail ticket office closures will lead to job losses, a transport minister has said, as Conservative MPs^▸ (Member of Parliament) raised “huge concerns” over the impact on passengers.

The rail minister, Huw Merriman, said in the Commons on Thursday that the Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers (RMT^▸ (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers)) union should take some responsibility for job losses.

Train operators on Wednesday confirmed the government’s proposals to shut down almost all of the 1,007 remaining offices in England, except at the busiest stations, within three years in an attempt to “modernise” the railway.

Some Tory MPs have criticised the measures, saying the “inadequate” technology at train stations will not be able to replace fully trained staff at ticket offices, leaving vulnerable passengers at risk of being unable to seek help.

and

Merriman said: [snip] “The sad reality of this situation is that there is an offer on the table which would have guaranteed no compulsory redundancies up to December 2024. But the union leaders refuse to put that offer to their members. So if there is any impact on job concerns then perhaps the RMT, and those who they back financially, might wish to take some responsibility for that.”

[Electric train]

DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) are looking for cost savings, NOT maximising revenue. That is the sad thing about all this.

Double-sad that they don't even seem to be looking merely to reduce supporting funds needed - in other words it's on the alter of costs, irrespective of damage done to revenue or revenue potential.  And where's the wider economic and social impact in this?

From The Guardian - Thu 6 Jul 2023 15.11 BST

Rail ticket office closures will lead to job losses, a transport minister has said, as Conservative MPs^▸ (Member of Parliament) raised “huge concerns” over the impact on passengers.

The rail minister, Huw Merriman, said in the Commons on Thursday that the Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers (RMT^▸ (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers)) union should take some responsibility for job losses.

Train operators on Wednesday confirmed the government’s proposals to shut down almost all of the 1,007 remaining offices in England, except at the busiest stations, within three years in an attempt to “modernise” the railway.

Some Tory MPs have criticised the measures, saying the “inadequate” technology at train stations will not be able to replace fully trained staff at ticket offices, leaving vulnerable passengers at risk of being unable to seek help.

and

Merriman said: [snip] “The sad reality of this situation is that there is an offer on the table which would have guaranteed no compulsory redundancies up to December 2024. But the union leaders refuse to put that offer to their members. So if there is any impact on job concerns then perhaps the RMT, and those who they back financially, might wish to take some responsibility for that.”

I cannot believe the Rail Minister could so naive in not realising the RMT could see straight through the "no compulsory redundancy" offer and know what the real agenda of the Government is.

A previous Conservative Government devised the privatised rail industry stating it would dive down costs to the Treasury reform the employment practices in the industry, its failed on both these, the question has it improved services is questionable.

This is closure process is being driven by the Treasury who understand the cost of everything but do not understand the value of anything.

The railways is constantly modernising, if did not we would still be operating steam locomotives, absolute block working with semaphore signals, wooden sleepers 60ft rail ................ etc

[TaplowGreen]

DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) are looking for cost savings, NOT maximising revenue. That is the sad thing about all this.

Double-sad that they don't even seem to be looking merely to reduce supporting funds needed - in other words it's on the alter of costs, irrespective of damage done to revenue or revenue potential.  And where's the wider economic and social impact in this?

From The Guardian - Thu 6 Jul 2023 15.11 BST

Rail ticket office closures will lead to job losses, a transport minister has said, as Conservative MPs^▸ (Member of Parliament) raised “huge concerns” over the impact on passengers.

The rail minister, Huw Merriman, said in the Commons on Thursday that the Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers (RMT^▸ (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers)) union should take some responsibility for job losses.

Train operators on Wednesday confirmed the government’s proposals to shut down almost all of the 1,007 remaining offices in England, except at the busiest stations, within three years in an attempt to “modernise” the railway.

Some Tory MPs have criticised the measures, saying the “inadequate” technology at train stations will not be able to replace fully trained staff at ticket offices, leaving vulnerable passengers at risk of being unable to seek help.

and

Merriman said: [snip] “The sad reality of this situation is that there is an offer on the table which would have guaranteed no compulsory redundancies up to December 2024. But the union leaders refuse to put that offer to their members. So if there is any impact on job concerns then perhaps the RMT, and those who they back financially, might wish to take some responsibility for that.”

The railways is constantly modernising, if did not we would still be operating steam locomotives, absolute block working with semaphore signals, wooden sleepers 60ft rail ................ etc

An impressive list................before you know it you'll have a reliable 7 day operation with Sundays in the working week!

[1st fan]

What you end up with (from experience with London Underground) is a harder to use system where anything other than a normal single/return from A to B is much more difficult. The suggestion then is just to do it online but there are those people who don’t want to or can’t do that. I don’t buy tickets online anymore after GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) had their data breach in 2018. If I can’t get the ticket from a TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) what the hell do I do then? I don’t do contactless on my bank cards and the only exception is my work ID and my Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) card