Severn Barrier - surely good news for FGW passengers?

[whole diary]

[Btline]

I read in the papers about the Severn Barrage today.

Surely this must be excellent? - 5% of our electrcity etc, no flood risk for Gloucester, etc.

New bridge for high speed rail - surely excellent.

Not when I saw the proposed position: between the South of Weston and South of Cardiff!

What type of rail service would utlise that? I suppose Lonodon, Bristol, Cardiff. But that means:

*services to Newport and Bristol Parkway (and maybe Swindon) would be cut due to the new route;

*service to Swansea only possible with a turnaround

*very long way round, meaning that journey time too long.

*congestion at Bristol Temple Meads?

Remember, it is not just about a High Speed Link, the barrier would provide an opportunity to electrify the line to South Wales (thereby making full GWMLs^▸ (Great Western Main Line) electrification worth while).

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Oh, and the alternative to the rail link is a "4 lane dual carriageway."

I still think that the M4 Toll will get preference!

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So what do others think of the plans?

[Shazz]

I read in the papers about the Severn Barrage today.

Surely this must be excellent? - 5% of our electrcity etc, no flood risk for Gloucester, etc.

New bridge for high speed rail - surely excellent.

Not when I saw the proposed position: between the South of Weston and South of Cardiff!

What type of rail service would utlise that? I suppose Lonodon, Bristol, Cardiff. But that means:

*services to Newport and Bristol Parkway (and maybe Swindon) would be cut due to the new route;

*service to Swansea only possible with a turnaround

*very long way round, meaning that journey time too long.

*congestion at Bristol Temple Meads?

Remember, it is not just about a High Speed Link, the barrier would provide an opportunity to electrify the line to South Wales (thereby making full GWMLs^▸ (Great Western Main Line) electrification worth while).

-------

Oh, and the alternative to the rail link is a "4 lane dual carriageway."

I still think that the M4 Toll will get preference!

-------

So what do others think of the plans?

The toll "can" be removed in 2010 iirc. Due to the bridge taking twice the amount it cost to build by then.

Plus, the shipping locks need to open, and thus this is the natural route for a train. Due to ships not being timetabled i can see nothing but delays after delays

As all the london > cardiff trains go via parkway. These no real business case for a direct london > cardiff via there as well. As it would have a detremental effect on commuters et al from parkway

[Btline]

Exactly, services at:

Newport, Bristol Parkway, Swindon and Didcot

will be cut by 2 tph.

I suppose an hourly service to Cheltenham from London will reduce this cut to 1 tph less at Swindon and East of Swindon.

What do others think? This is potentially disastrous!

Forget 4 tracking between parkway and Bristol if services are axed!

[devon_metro]

Nobody has even decided to build it yet so stop fretting!

[Shazz]

Exactly, services at:

I suppose an hourly service to Cheltenham from London will reduce this cut to 1 tph less at Swindon and East of Swindon.

Since when has chelt actually had an hourly london service? (in recent years)

[simonw]

I am surprised that the Welsh Assembly has done nothing to resolve the congestion problems with the Severn tunnel. The tunnel limits the number of trains to from Wales, and in many ways affects the economic development of South Wales.

Whilst they may be happy for a new rail system linking Bristol to Cardiff, I am not sure what effecting this would have on travel times between Cardiff to London. The current root, missing Bath/Chippenham, is a lot quicker, and I am quite sure any changes would not affect Bristol Parkway. It would still receive 2 tph, even though at peak times it could handle 4 tph!

[Tim]

I am surprised that the Welsh Assembly has done nothing to resolve the congestion problems with the Severn tunnel. The tunnel limits the number of trains to from Wales, and in many ways affects the economic development of South Wales.

Whilst they may be happy for a new rail system linking Bristol to Cardiff, I am not sure what effecting this would have on travel times between Cardiff to London. The current root, missing Bath/Chippenham, is a lot quicker, and I am quite sure any changes would not affect Bristol Parkway. It would still receive 2 tph, even though at peak times it could handle 4 tph!

The WAG^» (Welsh Assembly Government - about) are not concerned with improving Cardiff-London or Cardiff-Bristol links because London and Bristol are not in Wales.  They might well be interested in paying for a preportion of these improvements but matching funding would have to come from England.  WAG has spent money improving the Wales to South Wales link because even thought the middle bit of the line runs for a long way through England and it would make more sense to link North Wales with Manchester and South Wales with Bristol, the North-South link is seen as a Welsh project and something properly within their remit to spend "Wales's money" on

It is exactly the same kind of attitude that means that the M6 stops at Carlisle, continues for a few miles as a sub-standard dual carriageway and only becomes a motorway again (the A74(M)) at the Scottish Boarder.  The missing link is not a priorty for the English DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) because there are more important English road projects to spend money on and upgrading the missing link would mainly be of benefit to Scotland.  It would make sense for Scotland to pay for the upgrade but it would be politically unacceptable for Scotland to be seen spending its money on building roads in England.

This kind of thinking ignors the fact that transport over any real distance ceases to become a local issue.  The most important bit of railway to Cornwall is arguably the London to Swindon track, but would it be politically acceptable for Cornwall county council (or the SW RDA^▸ (Regional Development Agency)) to chip in for the rebuilding of Reading station?   The cheapest way that the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) taxpayer could speed up Manchester-Paris train journeys would propably be to bung the French Government half a billion Euros to encourage them to build LGV^▸ (Large Goods Vehicle) Picardie which would knock 20 minutes off the London-Paris Eurostar timings http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGV_Picardie, but would you be happy if some of the UK's limited rail buget was spend that way?

 

[eightf48544]

This kind of thinking ignors the fact that transport over any real distance ceases to become a local issue.  The most important bit of railway to Cornwall is arguably the London to Swindon track, but would it be politically acceptable for Cornwall county council (or the SW RDA^▸ (Regional Development Agency)) to chip in for the rebuilding of Reading station?   The cheapest way that the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) taxpayer could speed up Manchester-Paris train journeys would propably be to bung the French Government half a billion Euros to encourage them to build LGV^▸ (Large Goods Vehicle) Picardie which would knock 20 minutes off the London-Paris Eurostar timings http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGV_Picardie, but would you be happy if some of the UK's limited rail buget was spend that way?

Tim I thought for a minute there you were going to say bung the French Government half a billion Euros to build HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) to Scotland. Now there's a thought!

[simonw]

Tim, I agree with your argument, especially regarding M6/M74.

The argument about the Severn Tunnel is more interesting. As public transport is becoming more important, I'd have thought the WAG^» (Welsh Assembly Government - about) and DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) would be working together to improve the Severn Tunnel.

[12hoursunday]

It was mooted at the time of it's build to have the facilty for a rail line under the road surface of the second Severn crossing. Now whether this facilty is still available is unknown! That would be better I'm sure as the Bristol Parkway to Cardiff railway runs within a few hundred yards of the bridge.

[Tim]

Any consideration of this should be in the context of rising demand.  If the barriage is built it will not be open until say 2030.  At the current rate of growth frieght and passenger journeys would have more than doubled by then.  Additional costomers would also have been attracked by service improvements (although the levels of fares will also have an importance influence.) 

If you are dealing with a railway carrying 2 to 3 times the traffic we currently have then a sensible degree of duplication between the new line and the ligne classique might be justified. 

[Btline]

Exactly, services at:

I suppose an hourly service to Cheltenham from London will reduce this cut to 1 tph less at Swindon and East of Swindon.

Since when has chelt actually had an hourly london service? (in recent years)

I know, I was saying that the service could be enhanced to provide this.

[stebbo]

The location of the barrier is not fixed. It could be moved further up the estuary to meet all objectives - or is that too joined up....

[Chris from Nailsea]

More concerns raised over the barrage:

"The company behind the Port of Bristol has expressed 'serious concerns' about an energy-producing barrage in the Severn Estuary.

The Bristol Port Company said the ^14 billion project, which is the subject of an environmental study, would be a major impediment on its future plans."

See http://www.thisisclevedon.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=223432&command=displayContent&sourceNode=241560&home=yes&more_nodeId1=224152&contentPK=20798392

[Lee]

A supporters group has been established to back the construction of a tidal barrage. The Severn Barrage Supporters Association was launched at the Royal Bath and West Show last Friday (link below.)
http://thisissomerset.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=147472&command=displayContent&sourceNode=242195&contentPK=20800404&folderPk=113662&pNodeId=242229

Its chairman is former North Somerset councillor Chanel Stevens.

He said:

"We are here to give people the facts about why the Severn Barrage is such a needed project and how it will not only provide the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) with five per cent of secure green energy - enough to supply South West England or Wales for example - but also provide other benefits such as flood protection, better road and rail links and jobs.

"It could replace two or three nuclear power stations or 18 million tonnes of coal-fired electricity generation, while actually increasing the numbers of fish and birds in the Severn Estuary; what energy project can beat that?"

The group has been formed by scientists, engineers, businessmen, trades unionists and politicians.