Routeing query - Chippenham to Moreton in Marsh

[whole diary]

[1st fan]

There is (or was under franchises) a requirement on ticket office staff to offer the best value ticket for the journey requested

.......
 
That requirement, partial though it is does not, as I understand it, extend to web sites or ticket vending machines.

OK, but in this example we have the NRE^‡(resolve) website telling intending passengers that no return fares are available, whilst return fares are actually available and at a lower price than the one the NRE engine is offering.

Is that "within the rules?" Because if it is the rules need chaging as a matter of urgency

Worth letting Private Eye know as they run a column on train issues like this. They mentioned in one article  stations in the Welwyn Hatfield area where the MP^▸ (Member of Parliament) is the Right Honourable Grant Shapps. They did a piece about the Carnet tickets being replaced by the Flexible Season Ticket. It was pointed out that the Flexible Season Tickets were more expensive and less flexible than the Carnet.

[Robin Summerhill]

I have a reply to my first question last night, which was:

You told me, when answering a previous inquiry, this:
"Firstly, I would like to inform you that the functionality of our Journey Planner is to display the fastest route for any journey planned."

So why is there a check box labelled "Show only fastest trains"? Does it do anything? Apart from misleading users, of course - it clearly does that!

This is the reply:

Thanks for taking the time to email us. I was sorry to learn that you find our journey planner to be misleading. I understand that you would like to know the purpose of the check box "Show only fastest trains" on our journey planner. I further understand that our journey planner already shows the fastest possible route.

I would like to confirm that our journey planner certainly displays the fastest possible route between two stations; however, at times there are longer journeys which do get displayed because we offer passengers choice of travel options that are possible. This in most cases would be a direct train which would take a longer duration than a train with one change at one of the intermediate stations. So by changing trains one can arrive at the destination station earlier. If you check the box labeled "Show only fastest trains" the slow direct train will be removed and the journey with one change will continue to be displayed, as it is a faster journey.

I trust I have answered your query, and I hope you have a lovely day.

Thanks again for contacting us. Please let me know if I can be of any further assistance.

So it is, as I suspected, something to do with always including direct, or in this case more direct (fewer changes) journeys. The "Show only fastest trains" options would, if that reply is correct, suppress these more direct options if they were not in fact quicker. That does not help for this aberrant CPM^» (Chippenham - next trains)-MIM case because the one-change option via Reading is not slower, it's exactly as fast.

Note the dubious claim that "we offer passengers choice of travel options that are possible". I think that works out to not happen where fast trains are frequent enough that any slower train is overtaken by a faster one.

I've read this three times now and I'm still not totally clear about what they are saying and how it relates to real life! 

I "think" they are saying that if the journey planner finds the fastest most direct route then it excludes all other routes in the fares they offer. And as we have been told on this thread that the turnback easement via Reading has been withdrawn then there are no other fares available on this route and these advance tickets are the only option. Have I interpreted it correctly or do I need to have anither go?

But whilst this thread was active earlier today I was out doing some on-the-ground research at Chippenham booking office. The person behind the counter told me that both the off peak and the super off peak return options are available and at the prices quoted on the BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) fares website.

The only point that there is in buying the off peak return is if the passenger wished to travel via Reading. On all other services, either via Didcot/ Oxford or via Cheltenham, the cheaper super off peak ticket would be valid.

So, by extension, if the turnback easement Reading/ Didcot has indeed been withdrawn, nobody has yet bothered to tell the GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) ticket issuing machines...

[1st fan]

Who needs good advice from a booking office?

I suspect that's a question you are asking without expecting an answer.

There is (or was under franchises) a requirement on ticket office staff to offer the best value ticket for the journey requested - so that (for example) someone walking up to the ticket office at Chippenham and asking for a day return to London, on a Saturday, would be sold a super off peak return, rather than an off peak return or an anytime return. It is limited in that the ticket office staff are not required (and indeed not encouraged) to offer ticket combinations - so for example "return to London" in Monday morning peak will result in you being sold an anytime return, even if you're not coming back in a peak and two singles would be cheaper. If you're coming back later the same day on a long distance trip where no day return is offered, it could be cheaper to but two day returns for two "legs" of the journey - in our example the classic is Chippenham to Didcot and Didcot to London, but again the ticker office is not required to offer you these.

That requirement, partial though it is does not, as I understand it, extend to web sites or ticket vending machines. Not sure how it applies to touch in and out systems.  So no requirement to have a full range of tickets on a TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine), nor for it to easily offer you the best value even to the ticket office staff standard.

I had a disagreement with FGW^▸ (First Great Western) over a trip to Banbury from London Paddington many years ago. One version of the ticket machines didn’t sell tickets to Banbury. It was the upright stand alone ones next to the ticket office. I had arrived 15 minutes before the train was due to leave and waited in line for the machine. When I got to the front of the long queue there was no Banbury ticket on offer from that machine. I tried another queue for the larger machines but the queue was very long again. When the train was less than 2 minutes from leaving I went and boarded the train ticketless. I then had to explain onboard what had happened which was dismissed by the train manager. I was sold a full fare single ticket and had to buy another ticket at Banbury for my return.

When I got back to Paddington I got the FGW station manager and explained what had happened. He checked the machine and found to his considerable surprise there were no Banbury tickets offered. I was offered an apology and an immediate refund of the difference between my two tickets and the railcard discounted return I would have been able to purchase originally.

Passenger need good advice from ticket staff - however, you could argue that as far as the rail industry is concerned, they are something of a an enemy within to the financial model, directing people who are willing to pay higher fares toward the lower priced tickets.  In my view, that is a very shortsighted argument ...

There used to be a very helpful bloke who was Ex BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) at Kensington (Olympia) when it was a Silverlink station. I used to be a regular at the station back then and he would always offer (me) the cheapest tickets. He said that the newer staff possibly might not as their training wasn’t as comprehensive. They also might well not know how to sell the more unusual, i.e. exotic tickets. A case in point was the now defunct Gold Card 1st Class upgrade I would ask for.

[stuving]

This was my second question last night - longer, so the answer is longer. Trigger warning for Robin: you're not going to like it much!

If I ask your Online Journey Planner for tickets from Chippenham to Moreton-in-Marsh (e.g next Tuesday), it finds one possible journey per hour, all changing at Reading. All the fares it offers are for Advance tickets. On days when there are no Advance tickets left, the OJP^▸ (Online Journey Planner) bleats that no fares are available or suggests a First class Advance ticket.

In fact, this is not a valid routeing for tickets that have the route code and label "Any Permitted" (nor any others, of course). Advance tickets don't have such as route code or label, as you can't choose which trains to take. I have no idea why Advance tickets are available, but if that is meant to be possible then obviously the OJP should be able to cope. And it can't.

On the matching return leg, the route via Reading is a bit slower, so the journeys found are via Oxford and Didcot. This is a valid routeing, and singles can be offered - but no returns.

What makes this all rather silly is that where the journey via Reading is offered by the OJP, the alternative of changing at Didcot and Oxford works too, and gets you onto the same train and arriving at the same time! The Cheap fare finder offers this option, and so does offer return tickets.

So, why does the OJP's "fastest trains only" rule pick via Reading? Is there a second tie-breaker rule, where the journey time is the same, to favour fewer changes?

And, mainly, why is including the routeing that is only possible with an Advance ticket allowed to make such a mess of the OJP's performance of its main task?

And this was their reply:

Thanks for taking the time to email us. I was sorry to learn that our journey planner does not offer walk-on tickets for journeys from Chippenham to Moreton-in-Marsh for Tuesday, 05 April 2022. I understand that for the return journeys it offers fares via Oxford and Didcot Parkway.
 
I also understand that you would like an explanation why the walk-on fares are not displayed for the outward journey via Didcot Parkway and Oxford, and why only Advance fares are offered for the above route.
 
National Rail Enquiries is an information service provider, and we do not operate trains, retail tickets, or set fares. The fare information displayed on our website is provided by the relevant Train Operating Company on the route.
 
Firstly, I would like to explain that when I plan your journey from Chippenham to Moreton-in-Marsh on the Great Western Railway website for Tuesday, 05 April 2022 and even their website displays only Advance tickets via Reading. For the return portion, they are offering off-peak and super off-peak tickets.
 
I’m pleased to include a screen capture of the Great Western Railway website which displays the fares offered for your route.
 
Furthermore, if you want to check the walk-on fares on our website then you will have to make certain changes whilst panning your journey where you will have to click on ‘More options, railcards & passengers, then select under the Route option ‘Don’t change at’ and enter ‘Reading’.
 
Once you’ve planned this journey it will display Super Off-Peak Return tickets for £37.50 not via Reading and the journey will be with two changes at Didcot Parkway and Oxford. I’ve included the screen captures for your reference:
 
I trust this information is useful, and I hope you have a lovely day.
 
Thanks again for contacting us, and please let me know if I can be of any further assistance.

The screenshots show just what you would expect. One thing you can't fault them on is replying promptly, and at least considering the question asked. OK thery've ducked the hard bits; I guess the lesson there is to ask such a question on its own.

Any suggestions for a further question? Note that "let me know" is a bit misleading, as I'm pretty sure I can't reply to that e-mail. I think I'd have to use the usual "comment" page, and quote the reference from the e-mail subject line.

[stuving]

On the specific question of offering Advance tickets over a route for which no walk-up ticket is available, I found this railforums thread that cites several others. Those are long cross-country routes, for which a lot of routes look sensible but not all are permitted. In some cases Advance tickets via London are. I can see none where the Advance ticket goes via a double-back.

Also, these other examples involve several TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company). Advance tickets have a strong marketing input, so it is not perhaps a surprise to see them offered via London for that reason. Of course in the CPM^» (Chippenham - next trains)-MIM case only GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) trains are involved (when only trains/sequences via Didcot are found).

But it does appear that this is not an aberration. So I reckon if this situation is to be expected, the OJP^▸ (Online Journey Planner) should be able to cope.

Note that if no advances are on offer for a specific train/sequence, that's shown for it. However, it uses the word "journey" for this as well as for the from/to.when data you enter. I can't think of a simple common word or phrase for that apart from train or sequence of trains. And note also that if no advances are on offer at all that day, the OJP has one of its funny turns.

[Mark A]

On the specific question of offering Advance tickets over a route for which no walk-up ticket is available, I found this mailforums thread that cites several others. Those are long cross-country routes, for which a lot of routes look sensible but not all are permitted. In some cases Advance tickets via London are. I can see none where the Advance ticket goes via a double-back.

Also, these other examples involve several TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company). Advance tickets have a strong marketing input, so it is not perhaps a surprise to see them offered via London for that reason. Of course in the CPM^» (Chippenham - next trains)-MIM case only GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) trains are involved (when only trains/sequences via Didcot are found).

But it does appear that this is not an aberration. So I reckon if this situation is to be expected, the OJP^▸ (Online Journey Planner) should be able to cope.

Note that if no advances are on offer for a specific train/sequence, that's shown for it. However, it uses the word "journey" for this as well as for the from/to.when data you enter. I can't think of a simple common word or phrase for that apart from train or sequence of trains. And note also that if no advances are on offer at all that day, the OJP has one of its funny turns.

Think I found that now Salisbury connections are rubble, it makes sense for a couple of evening connections to change at Southampton - but no walk up through tickets are available - though the system will offer the unhappy traveller an advance Waterloo - Southampton (change) to Bristol.

Mark

[grahame]

Think I found that now Salisbury connections are rubble, it makes sense for a couple of evening connections to change at Southampton - but no walk up through tickets are available - though the system will offer the unhappy traveller an advance Waterloo - Southampton (change) to Bristol.

If Advance tickets are available from London (Waterloo) to Trowbridge or Bradford-on-Avon via Southampton, then surely in the Queen's English that is a permitted route for the journey, and tickets endorsed "any permitted" should be accepted without question on that route.

London Waterloo to Trowbridge and Bradford-on-Avon via Southampton also goes via Salisbury and Warminster, so surely tickets with that routing should also be accepted via Southampton - if the advance ones are, then then more expensive flexible ones should be, for goodness sake!

[stuving]

If Advance tickets are available from London (Waterloo) to Trowbridge or Bradford-on-Avon via Southampton, then surely in the Queen's English that is a permitted route for the journey, and tickets endorsed "any permitted" should be accepted without question on that route.

That's a problem with using the single word "permitted", rather than a longer version (e.g. adding "by the routeing guide"). Could you do the same trick of extending the meaning of "permitted" if you were travelling with someone who had a Rover ticket? As in: "It's permitted on that ticket, so it's not not permitted at all".

Looked at the other way, why is there a route restriction printed on the ticket? So you can choose the trains to take. If a ticket tells you exactly which trains to take, that isn't needed, so there is no "route" in that sense. I think Advance tickets say something like "valid only of the services specified", maybe adding "and connections".

All part of nature's way of telling you that you've made the whole thing too complicated, of course.

[paul7575]

If Advance tickets are available from London (Waterloo) to Trowbridge or Bradford-on-Avon via Southampton, then surely in the Queen's English that is a permitted route for the journey, and tickets endorsed "any permitted" should be accepted without question on that route.

That's a problem with using the single word "permitted", rather than a longer version (e.g. adding "by the routeing guide"). Could you do the same trick of extending the meaning of "permitted" if you were travelling with someone who had a Rover ticket? As in: "It's permitted on that ticket, so it's not not permitted at all".

Looked at the other way, why is there a route restriction printed on the ticket? So you can choose the trains to take. If a ticket tells you exactly which trains to take, that isn't needed, so there is no "route" in that sense. I think Advance tickets say something like "valid only of the services specified", maybe adding "and connections".

All part of nature's way of telling you that you've made the whole thing too complicated, of course.

I’ve always understood Advance fares can be and are routed outside the rules of the routing guide.  The itinerary given can include a “normal route” plus connections into it at one or both ends.  So I don’t think the existence of advance fares via Southampton as mentioned creates a valid route for other ticket types.

[Robin Summerhill]

I am still trying to get round to composing a coherent response to the original query following stuving comments yesterday, but it is clear that here is an additional issue bound up with this, and that is the printing of “any permitted  on a ticket.

It is all very well the railway telling you that the ticket in your hand is valid by “any permitted route” but it doesn’t give you any indication of what that route or routes may be.

In some cases it is blatantly obvious. If you are going from Chippenham to Swindon or Newport to Cardiff or Par to Truro, for example, there are no sensible alternatives to the obvious route. But this query arose in the first place because there are a number of routes between CPM^» (Chippenham - next trains) and MIM that it would be theoretically possible to take, and my initial query was querying one of them (list below with mileages shown m:ch):

124.07 Bristol – Cheltenham – Worcester Shrub Hill
118.23 Bristol – Cheltenham – Worcestershire Parkway
115.48 Swindon – Cheltenham – Worcester Shrub Hill
108.44 Swindon – Cheltenham – Worcestershire Parkway
79.19 Didcot-Oxford
91.42 Reading

So it now transpires that via Reading is not a permitted route but the other 5 are, despite the fact that advance fares can be routed via Reading. And has Graham has pointed out indirectly in a recent post, even those of us that know a little about railways and routes would automatically assume that is an advance ticket is permitted over a certain route, then other tickets will be as well. This also turns out not to be the case!

So how does the average punter find out which routes are permitted? The link to the routeing guide from the RDG^‡(resolve) website doesn’t work for me, and I see from a post on the Rail Forums thread that I am not the only one that has had that problem. Furthermore, the warning given on that RDG page saying that the information is of a technical nature and by implication undecipherable the brains of mere mortals would put many people off looking even if they could access it!

Presumably a member of staff in a booking office might be expected to know what the permitted routes were. But you are not going to get that information from a TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) or a search engine

It all seems a bit of a mess.

[ChrisB]

So how does the average punter find out which routes are permitted?

Presumably a member of staff in a booking office might be expected to know what the permitted routes were. But you are not going to get that information from a TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) or a search engine

Yep - any journey planner (ie a search engine) is linked to the routing guide and if you plot your requested route then it *should* offer a fare if it is valid. Where it doesn't, but is valid, there is a fault which should be corrected.

[stuving]

So how does the average punter find out which routes are permitted?

Presumably a member of staff in a booking office might be expected to know what the permitted routes were. But you are not going to get that information from a TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) or a search engine

Yep - any journey planner (ie a search engine) is linked to the routing guide and if you plot your requested route then it *should* offer a fare if it is valid. Where it doesn't, but is valid, there is a fault which should be corrected.

Not only that, but the official guidance about checking what is valid is to rely on the NRE^‡(resolve) OJP^▸ (Online Journey Planner). The Guide itself is available, but for obvious reasons has never been seen as suitable for general use.

In this case the specific combination of the ticket offer, the timetable, and the way the OJP is set up means you can't check what "any permitted" means. So something is wrong ... but where and who should fix it is less clear. One answer would be "the railway - it should all work together". But try substituting "NHS" for "railway" and see what that suggests.

[ChrisB]

Fixing it will need to be included within the fares revision that GBR^▸ (Great British Railways) will be undertaking - but I suspct it'll be the travellingf public to lose out on multiple routings. They'll call it 'simplification'

[Robin Summerhill]

Sorry Chris I didn’t make myself clear. This might have already been answered by later posts but I am asking again just to be absolutely clear.

Unless I am mistaken (and I may well be!) it is not currently possible for the public to easily gain access to details of valid outs for a given journey when they start their planning ie “I want to go from A to B. Which are the permitted routes?”

It is of course possible to find out through the journey planner by specifying various route options (and indeed that now appears even more important because as shown in the CPM^» (Chippenham - next trains) to MIM example you might not be given the true full range of tickets available until you do). But whilst the likes of you and me and most on this forum have prior knowledge of where railways still run and the various route permutations that might be possible, the general public may not

Am I right in this or have I missed something?

[grahame]

Unless I am mistaken (and I may well be!) it is not currently possible for the public to easily gain access to details of valid outs for a given journey when they start their planning ie “I want to go from A to B. Which are the permitted routes?”

[snip]

Am I right in this or have I missed something?

The routing guide is at https://data.atoc.org/routeing-guide .  You can easily gain access to that.  Whether you (or I) can easily understand it is a much trickier question.