Routeing query - Chippenham to Moreton in Marsh

[whole diary]

[Robin Summerhill]

I had an idea about taking a trip from Chippenham to Moreton in the Marsh, for no better reason than it is there...

The BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) fares website gives two basic options of route – Any Permitted or Not via Reading. What exactly does this mean in this case? Would a “not via Reading” ticket cover Swindon-Cheltenham-Worcester Parkway as well as via Didcot and Charlbury?

The link to the routeing guide on the Rail Delivery Group website just gives me a “bad request” message when I click on it, hence the reason for asking the question here

[ChrisB]

Try putting Worcestershire Parkway as a 'via' station into the National Rail journeyplanner & see if that offers you the same fare as a "not via Reading" fare. If it does, yes, that way is also valid

[JayMac]

With the 'Not via Reading' fares you can go:

Chippenham - Swindon - Cheltenham - Worcesterahire Parkway - Moreton-in-Marsh.

Chippenham - Swindon - Cheltenham - Worcester Shrub Hill - Moreton-in-Marsh

Chippenham - Bristol TM^‡(resolve) - Worcester Shrub Hill - Moreton-in-Marsh

Chippenham - Didcot Parkway - Oxford - Moreton-in-Marsh

[Robin Summerhill]

This is getting curiouser and curiouser!

I went into the National Rail Enquiries website and initially just put in CPM^» (Chippenham - next trains) to MIM with no route specified. I was then told that there were no teturn fares avaibale, and the only tickets on offer were 1st class advance singles.

On the BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) fares website the following standard class RETURN fares are listed (with railcard):

Anytime not via Reading £81.70
Anytime any permitted £80.90
Off peak any permitted £34.05
Off peak not Reading £32.65
Super off peak any permitted £25.45
Super off peak not Reading £24.75

And yes I’ve checked it three times - the anytime any permitted fare is lower than the anytime not via Reading fare

[eightonedee]

Makes you wonder - what on earth is the point of having "not via Reading" fares in the first place. Why on earth spend  £100ms on revamping it as a major interchange station and then go to the trouble of working out marginally more expensive (or cheaper!) fares for using it!

Wouldn't it be better just to abolish all "not via Reading" fares to give everyone no incentive not to have to change at stations with poorer connections and facilities - heavens above - it might just make rail travel a tad more attractive!

[ChrisB]

The Anytime fares are unregulated I believe.

I'll bet that the two fares - Any Permitted & Not Via Reading - are controlled by different TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) who have applied fare rises differently, according to their priorities, thus they have differed over time. Another very valid reason why the fares need sorting out!

[JayMac]

All fares under discussion are priced by GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway).

I suspect the premium for most of the 'Any Permitted' fares, allowing travel via Reading, is a legacy of BR^▸ (British Rail(ways))'s pricing for flows that included Inter-City travel.

The Anytime 'Any Permitted' fare, allowing travel via Reading is a regulated fare that has its annual price rise controlled by government. The Anytime 'not via Reading' fare is unregulated meaning the train operator is free to price it how it wishes.

That anomalous pricing for the Anytime fare has been around for a long time. I've looked back to the earliest National Fares Manual available online (NFM01 from September 2008) and the 'Not via Reading' Open Return was more expensive back then too.

Attached are the Chippenham - Moreton-in-Marsh fares from 2008. Multiply by 0.66 for the approximate Railcard prices.

FO = 1st Class Open (now Anytime)
FS = 1st Class Saver (now Off Peak)
SO = Standard Class Open
SV = Standard Class Saver
7F = 1st Class 7 day Season
7D = Standard Class 7 day Season
(S) = Single
(R) = Return

LC^▸ (Level Crossing) and WO are codes for the time restrictions on the Saver fares.

[Trowres]

From Chippenham, the Not Via Reading fare is superfluous as Reading is not a valid route for Any Permitted. This, I presume, is due to the No Doubling Back rule.

Things are a bit more interesting from Melksham to Moreton.
There are still the options of Any permitted or Not via Reading. In this case, however, via Reading is a valid route if you travel via Westbury and Newbury (which is permitted), giving you no problem with doubling-back.

You have to put a "via" in the journey planner, otherwise Melksham to MIM comes up with all journeys via Swindon/Reading and "No fares available".

Just to be a bit more quirky, the National Rail Journey Planner also recognises the doubling back restriction for Trowbridge-MIM via Reading. But instead of "no fares available" it offers a single to Reading and another single RDG^‡(resolve)-MIM.

[stuving]

This is getting curiouser and curiouser!

I went into the National Rail Enquiries website and initially just put in CPM^» (Chippenham - next trains) to MIM with no route specified. I was then told that there were no teturn fares avaibale, and the only tickets on offer were 1st class advance singles.

Remember that the OJP^▸ (Online Journey Planner) does not find fares, it finds journeys, independently for outward and return, and then tries to find fares to suit. And it only considers the fastest journey for any start time. On the next few Sundays bustitutes abound, but one of the "fastest" journeys it found was via Cheltenham and Bristol - no fare for that one, of course.

On the basis of a quick look, it appears that on weekdays all the outward journeys are via Reading, but none of the returns. Now, an any permitted return fare should work fine with that, but I think the OJP is refusing to offer it for some reason. It may be worth complaining/asking about that - they do respond, though are disinclined to believe in errors in their baby.

But where, on Sundays, the OJP does find matching routes not via Reading, it does offer the £24.75 SSR return fare. Where on weekdays there are some routes each way not via Reading, it still refuses to offer the via Reading route outward and another for the return.

Try the cheap fare finder - it's the same software but given rather different rules, aimed more towards finding fares. It does better at finding the return fares, provided you don't select a peak time to start. If you do it finds advances, even tomorrow.

[grahame]

For Melksham to Evesham, you also get "no fares found" sometimes unless you put in "not via Reading". Simples.

The same problem been there for years, and it includes a wide range of other places north of Oxford on various lines. I remember helping a customer coming to us on a training course who had a similar problem looking to get a Coventry to Melksham journey.

[stuving]

From Chippenham, the Not Via Reading fare is superfluous as Reading is not a valid route for Any Permitted. This, I presume, is due to the No Doubling Back rule.

A few years ago there was an easement:
000082     Doubleback             Journeys via Swindon and Didcot or via Swindon to Didcot and routed Not London may double back between Reading and Didcot. This easements applies in both directions.

That's now been restricted in scope and reads:
000082     Doubleback     Journeys from Appleford and beyond to or via Swindon routed (00700) NOT VIA LONDON, (00405) AP OXFORD and (00415) AP NOT VIA LONDON may double back between Reading and Didcot. This easements applies in both directions.

Would that be applied to Any Permitted? I'm not sure, but if so the existence of the fare might be due to that: it was recently valid.

Now, the OJP^▸ (Online Journey Planner) sets out to find journeys and finds a via Reading one, but then discovers there is no fare to apply to it! However, on some trains it does find an advance, which somehow does still exist via this routeing! Of course, being for specific trains, and Advance ticket does not need a routeing code.

[grahame]

Why not make the whole problem academic by running a decent direct Oxford - Swindon service, perhaps extending it on to Westbury?

[Trowres]

A further complication I have found, regarding journeys from Trowbridge to Oxford is that:

Trowbridge-Didcot - valid via Bath Spa

Trowbridge-Oxford (via Didcot) - NOT valid via Bath Spa.

 

[Trowres]

While we're on the subject of routeing, does this "Routeing Point Calculator" work for anyone?

https://data.atoc.org/rp_calc

I can't get past the non-functional Captcha.

[CyclingSid]

I can't get past the non-functional Captcha.

Ditto