Night Riviera to be reduced for eight weeks due to engineering work - Jan 2022

[whole diary]

[GBM]

I have no idea of the difference between 98s, 88s, 68s and 57s but anything more reliable is probably also essential for the future.

Class 93s (or a version of) are most likely IMHO^▸ (in my humble opinion).  88s not powerful enough in diesel, 68s are diesel only and 98s are most definitely not suitable, though I expect Broadgage would welcome them!  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_98

Link not operative!
Link here to Stadler class 93 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_93_(Stadler)

[grahame]

I have no idea of the difference between 98s, 88s, 68s and 57s but anything more reliable is probably also essential for the future.

Class 93s (or a version of) are most likely IMHO^▸ (in my humble opinion).  88s not powerful enough in diesel, 68s are diesel only and 98s are most definitely not suitable, though I expect Broadgage would welcome them!  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_98

Link not operative!
Link here to Stadler class 93 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_93_(Stadler)

Link fixed.   

There are quite a few locomotives in class 98, and their utilisation is quite low.  There might be a problem as there's quite a range of sub-types and a need for some new infrastructure along the way to handle their fuelling, servicing and cleaning, but I suspect they would generate a significant market of leisure passengers based exactly on the variety within the class.  I do appreciate that some of them - such as 98007 / 8 / 9 wouldn't be possible.

[Godfrey Tables]

I hear across Europe a lot of previously axed sleeper services are being revived as there is an increasing market for them. People increasingly turning away from air travel for a multitude of reasons, environmental impact being one of them.
It would therefore seem against current trends if the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) was to close any of its sleeper services, although I might be comparing apples with oranges. I wonder if recent impact on domestic aviation would have affected demand for long distance rail

[grahame]

I hear across Europe a lot of previously axed sleeper services are being revived as there is an increasing market for them. People increasingly turning away from air travel for a multitude of reasons, environmental impact being one of them.
It would therefore seem against current trends if the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) was to close any of its sleeper services, although I might be comparing apples with oranges. I wonder if recent impact on domestic aviation would have affected demand for long distance rail

I would very much agree that this might be exactly the time we see a change from sleepers fading out to sleeper making a return.  And there are various suggestions I have seen, some of which make a lot of sense.

I just did some quick look-ups of potential and actual routes ...

Paris to Rome - 1400 km
London to Aberdeen - 880 km
Brussels to Madrid - 1600 km
Frankfurt to Stockolm - 1500 km
Plymouth to Inverness - 1000 km
Amsterdam to Vienna - 950 km
London to Penzance - 500 km
Hamburg to Warsaw - 850 km
Copenhagen to Ljubljana - 1400 km
Lisbon to Milan - 2000 km

and I'm noting that the European routes are typically longer (but, sure, I was a bit selective and didn't try Brussels to Amsterdam or Dublin to Belfast!)

I have used sleepers on occasion - strikes me as a very sensible way to leave home during the evening, sleep overnight and wake fresh for a day's work in Edinburgh or Motherwell.    Similarly, finish a day's work, and sleep while I travel home.

Problem is - it really hasn't worked too well for me.   

Northbound, a late afternoon / early evening train from Melksham (cannot risk the last train on a Sunday!) and then hanging around in the Sleeper Lounge at Euston.  Up at some ungodly hour and decanted onto the platform at Motherwell; connecting train to Coatbridge with a couple of hours still to kill before the place I'm working opens.

Southbound - from a 6 p.m. finish in Edinburgh, do you realise how l-o-n-g it is until the sleeper leaves. Then in London, across to Paddington and train to Chippenham where (of course) there was no connection to Melksham and the bus goes from the other side of the town; great with heavy equipment.

There may be solutions - and I do recall a much longer sleeper journey from Southern Europe up to Paris, where the arrival was at least in the light. and we had a time to have a look around before crossing over to Gare du Nord for Eurostar.

I wonder - casual speculation - if the Cally Sleeper should run to / from Stirling (I think they could find a platform) with check in any time from 18:00 at both ends of the route, on board hot food and like a proper hotel.  Rail transfer to "any connecting station in Scotland" included in the price, and perhaps a late joiner / early leaver stop at (!) Motherwell.    Similarly, the South West service, available from 18:00 and to 08:00 at both Paddington and Plymouth.

[plymothian]

The should re-complete the triangle and bring back the Penzance - Aberdeen sleeper.

[anthony215]

The should re-complete the triangle and bring back the Penzance - Aberdeen sleeper.

That one i.think would prove popular

[TaplowGreen]

I hear across Europe a lot of previously axed sleeper services are being revived as there is an increasing market for them. People increasingly turning away from air travel for a multitude of reasons, environmental impact being one of them.
It would therefore seem against current trends if the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) was to close any of its sleeper services, although I might be comparing apples with oranges. I wonder if recent impact on domestic aviation would have affected demand for long distance rail

I wonder - casual speculation - if the Cally Sleeper should run to / from Stirling (I think they could find a platform) with check in any time from 18:00 at both ends of the route, on board hot food and like a proper hotel.  Rail transfer to "any connecting station in Scotland" included in the price, and perhaps a late joiner / early leaver stop at (!) Motherwell.    Similarly, the South West service, available from 18:00 and to 08:00 at both Paddington and Plymouth.

This as a minimum if the Night Riviera is to remain viable - or go back to the previous arrangement whereby a carriage was detached at Plymouth Westbound allowing those on board to sleep on to a reasonably civilised hour.

I'd happily use it if I could stay on board till 0730-0800, but I'm not going to pay a premium for a service where I'm kicked off at 0520, having had to wake up some time earlier - you can hardly call that a "sleeper" service - maybe a dozer? 

In the meantime, far better to travel down earlier in the evening and stay in a hotel for a full night's sleep.

I'd be very interested in where and from whom the demand is going to come for a Penzance - Aberdeen sleeper service.......and of course Oooooooooooooos gonna pay for it?

[Mark A]

West Country angloscottish sleeper = a stable 50,000 passengers per year in the last years it ran, with not a lot of promotion being done.

When buying tickets at Bath Spa, it's one of the services I've overheard more than one enquiry for from other intending travellers (along with, as recently as this year, "Can I have a single to Devizes please?")

Mark

[IndustryInsider]

It used to connect up at Birmingham with carriages to/from Poole IIRC^▸ (if I recall/remember/read correctly)?  That portion was less successful, but it is the obvious route for a new sleeper service should overnight travel popularity continue to rise.

[TaplowGreen]

West Country angloscottish sleeper = a stable 50,000 passengers per year in the last years it ran, with not a lot of promotion being done.

When buying tickets at Bath Spa, it's one of the services I've overheard more than one enquiry for from other intending travellers (along with, as recently as this year, "Can I have a single to Devizes please?")

Mark

That's really interesting - when did it last run, and why was it stopped?

[Timmer]

That's really interesting - when did it last run, and why was it stopped?

If I can remember correctly, I believe it was around the time of rail privatisation in the mid nineties. It may have been stopped because it didn’t fit easily into one of the rail franchises. Scotrail taking on the London-Scotland services and GW^▸ (Great Western) taking the London-Cornwall service. I doubt Virgin would have been interested in operating it as part of the XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) franchise.

[JayMac]

The should re-complete the triangle and bring back the Penzance - Aberdeen sleeper.

Was there ever a Penzance to Aberdeen sleeper? The Night Westcountryman ran between Plymouth and Glasgow/Edinburgh. During some of its lifetime there was a portion to/from Poole that attached/detached at Birmingham New St.

[grahame]

Here are sleeper services as they were in 1989



Looking back to 1983 - just one page of many:

[GBM]

The should re-complete the triangle and bring back the Penzance - Aberdeen sleeper.

Don't remember it as a sleeper, but I did pay off a ship in Newcastle mid evening, and caught a through train direct to Penzance, arriving around 7am'ish in the early 1970's.

[TaplowGreen]

The should re-complete the triangle and bring back the Penzance - Aberdeen sleeper.

Don't remember it as a sleeper, but I did pay off a ship in Newcastle mid evening, and caught a through train direct to Penzance, arriving around 7am'ish in the early 1970's.

........having boarded the train in the late 1960s 

Looking at the timetables which Graham has supplied I note the sleeper arrival times in Plymouth from Paddington (almost the same as today), but passengers could stay on board until 0800.........the situation today doesn't feel like progress.

I wonder how the loadings in those days compare to todays?