FGW HSTs: worst refurbishment ever?

[whole diary]

[Lee]

Similarly in Devon

Network Rail forecast significant growth for local services to Exeter, mainly on the Exmouth branch and from the south Devon area.

[dog box]

Similarly in Devon

Combined with the introduction of 4-car trains making it look like their is more room.

surely there IS more room on a 4 car DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) than a 2 Car...........or am i mssing something??

[swlines]

Yes. It's an entire illusion.

[Conner]

4-car 142 has less room than a 150+153.
And it isn't that much more than a 142 in a single 150.
142's do have more standing room.

[Btline]

Ummmmmmm did I read earlier from Vacman that FGW^▸ (First Great Western) are axing buffet cars?

-----------

The new HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) are not comfortable - would not want to sit in them for too long.

But plenty of room, and I have had a view when I've been on them. Ok, not as good as a table, but not as bad as a typical Voyager view.

-----------

Ummmmmmm did I read earlier from Vacman that FGW are axing buffet cars?

[Mookiemoo]

Ummmmmmm did I read earlier from Vacman that FGW^▸ (First Great Western) are axing buffet cars?

-----------

The new HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) are not comfortable - would not want to sit in them for too long.

But plenty of room, and I have had a view when I've been on them. Ok, not as good as a table, but not as bad as a typical Voyager view.

-----------

Ummmmmmm did I read earlier from Vacman that FGW are axing buffet cars?

If they do - they take the "heart" out of the train

[smithy]

Ummmmmmm did I read earlier from Vacman that FGW^▸ (First Great Western) are axing buffet cars?

-----------

The new HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) are not comfortable - would not want to sit in them for too long.

But plenty of room, and I have had a view when I've been on them. Ok, not as good as a table, but not as bad as a typical Voyager view.

-----------

Ummmmmmm did I read earlier from Vacman that FGW are axing buffet cars?

apparently on some services they will run 2+7 i believe there will be some spare buffet cars the rest will be converted to make at least one full set of carriages?

this is just a rumour i have heard so is unconfirmed as far as iam aware

[woody]

Regards the HST^▸ (High Speed Train) refurb,FGW^▸ (First Great Western) quote health and safety requirements as the justification for those very high HST seats,why then are FGW retaining much lower seats in the 150/153/158 refurb and for that matter why has FGW not ripped out the tables and put in more seats on the 158s on the Cardiff/Porstmouth route.Surely there is more reason to provide class 158 accommadation on a Penzance/Paddington HST than the much shorter  Cardiff/Porstmouth route.
 FGW seem to have got it just right with the refurbed 158s,maybe they have learnt from their errors on the HST refurb.

[Conner]

DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit)'s don't need High Back seats as they go under 100 mph.
Ripping out the seats in 158's would have meant new Richmond seats which are very uncomfortable. Richmond seats are reasonably high backed. FGW^▸ (First Great Western) basically didn't want to mess with the DMU's seating layout as they thought, wrightly, that it worked.
The new HST^▸ (High Speed Train) seating layout has given more seats which is brilliant.

[woody]

DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit)'s don't need High Back seats as they go under 100 mph.
Ripping out the seats in 158's would have meant new Richmond seats which are very uncomfortable. Richmond seats are reasonably high backed. FGW^▸ (First Great Western) basically didn't want to mess with the DMU's seating layout as they thought, wrightly, that it worked.
The new HST^▸ (High Speed Train) seating layout has given more seats which is brilliant.

The point Barry Doe was making in "Rail" was that what is "brilliant for commuters is not necessarily "brilliant" for long distance rail users which some of the posts on this thread have born out,there is more to rail travel than just legroom and plugging in a laptop on a long rail journey to say Cornwall.But in a franchise that is now dominated by the commuter/short/medium distance market FGW have inevitably had to compromise the long haul market by adopting the policy of one size fits all.Clearly we are polls apart on this one.
  Still thats life nothing is perfect.

[tramway]

I agree there is more to long distance travel than just a bit of leg room. One of the biggest pleasures of those sort of journeys is being able to chat with fellow passengers, not just the bloke you happen to sit next to. High density seating for the commuter journey may be ok, but leaves those who are going from say Wiltshire to deepest Cornwall feeling just a tad isolated for the whole of the journey.

Not much chance for socialising if all you have for company is a laptop and the bloke you are sat next to^s only topic of conversation is HST^▸ (High Speed Train) refurbishments. 

[Andy W]

One of the bigger differences between long distance travel is not only about a need for a little more space (hence 2+2 rather than 2+3 seating) you also need space for luggage.

On the original Mk 3s there was useful space between the seats that were back to back. Sometimes this contained waste bins other spaces for cases. The new coaches loose this space with the airline seating.

While some issues are a matter of personal preference, FGW^▸ (First Great Western) seem incapable of understanding the differences between long distance & short distance / commuter needs.

That is why the refurb may suit some but looses out for others.

[eightf48544]

While some issues are a matter of personal preference, FGW^▸ (First Great Western) seem incapable of understanding the differences between long distance & short distance / commuter needs.

That is why the refurb may suit some but looses out for others.

Exactly I posted a thread earlier as to why HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) were not suitable commuter trains, excessive dwell times caused by too few doors. One point also that I didn't mention is that 23 m long coaches are probably too long for commuter work, with their bad passenger/door ratio. A five 20 m car articulated train is not much longer than a 4 car 23 m set. It has a lower passenger/door ratio.

Therefore, any refurb to make them into "better" commuter trains won't work as this thread proves and of course spoils them for long distance passengers.

The root cause of the problem is the failure of DafT to electrify the GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line). This solves the rolling stock problem in one hit. Modern EMUS like the Desiros for commuter/intermediate  work and Class 93s and Mark 5 for mainline. The class 93s could be replaced by diesels at Plymouth and Swansea. Although as above the continental articulated varity for the Desiros. Like the ones on Hanover S bahn you can see right down the length of unit as they have low seats and wide gangways between cars.

Therefore, the diesel IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) is dead as is the dual mode.

Although Marks 3 are one of the best coaches to crash in, high speed derailments of Euriostar and TGV^▸ (Train a Grande Vitesse) sets have shown the added value of articulation in keeping the train upright and preventing jack knifing.

[vacman]

While some issues are a matter of personal preference, FGW^▸ (First Great Western) seem incapable of understanding the differences between long distance & short distance / commuter needs.

That is why the refurb may suit some but looses out for others.

Exactly I posted a thread earlier as to why HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) were not suitable commuter trains, excessive dwell times caused by too few doors. One point also that I didn't mention is that 23 m long coaches are probably too long for commuter work, with their bad passenger/door ratio. A five 20 m car articulated train is not much longer than a 4 car 23 m set. It has a lower passenger/door ratio.

Therefore, any refurb to make them into "better" commuter trains won't work as this thread proves and of course spoils them for long distance passengers.

The root cause of the problem is the failure of DafT to electrify the GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line). This solves the rolling stock problem in one hit. Modern EMUS like the Desiros for commuter/intermediate  work and Class 93s and Mark 5 for mainline. The class 93s could be replaced by diesels at Plymouth and Swansea. Although as above the continental articulated varity for the Desiros. Like the ones on Hanover S bahn you can see right down the length of unit as they have low seats and wide gangways between cars.

Therefore, the diesel IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) is dead as is the dual mode.

Although Marks 3 are one of the best coaches to crash in, high speed derailments of Euriostar and TGV^▸ (Train a Grande Vitesse) sets have shown the added value of articulation in keeping the train upright and preventing jack knifing.

Buckeye couplings prevent trains tipping over as they have proved in many crashes, OK, not to the extent of an articulated train, however, with an articulated train your are nearly doubling the axle weight per coach, which would affect the route availiability. As for changing loco's at Plymouth, thats about 10 minutes at least wasted on each journey!
What people are forgetting here is that HST's are a commuter train, but a long distance commuter train, thats what they were built for, thats what they do well, at the end of the day Bristol-Padd is a commuter route, would you rather have Turbo's doing those service's just because they've got more door's?

[FarWestJohn]

You have put your finger on one of the problems. The HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) were designed as an inter city train but now with the changes to travel patterns more and more stops have been added especially on routes like London to Bristol. This has turned their current use into not ideal commuter shuttles.

This is why the two fleets should have been much more different. The long distance versions should have kept with an internal layout for that purpose, comfort ambiance and also luggage storage.

One of the troubles is that they do not appear to be able to diagram the units to their two respective tasks they appear to be used interchangeably. Whether this will change when all the units including the extra one are complete only time will tell.

They are certainly not fit for long distance travel after their refurbishment.

It will be interesting to see what decisions are made for the GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line) if the diesel IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) is binned as GW^▸ (Great Western) was going to be the main user.