Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21

[whole diary]

[grahame]

The problem with speculating publicly is that there are plausible explanations that point to human error.

Indeed, and we live in a society which very rarely says "it was an accident - just one of those things that happens from time to time".  We ask which individuals, and which systems, could have done things or been different and we then ask "could they have know better" or "should the systems have been better". And as such, we tend to point to human error or misjudgement; doing so without full information tends, perhaps, to create something of a kangaroo court.

Looking back even at old reports I can turn the pages of virtually any of them and read "x" should have done "y". Once the verdict is in, I can quote that. Prior to than verdict / analysis, I really shouldn't even draw a parallel and indeed I'm going to stress here that the reports in this photo are merely the more southern ones from a pile I have.

I think we can all appreciate that no one sets out to deliberately cause an incident.

Indeed - but there are some accidents which, upon proper investigation, have turned out to have at least partial cause based on wilfully not following rules which are laid down for safety reasons.

[JayMac]

I think we can all appreciate that no one sets out to deliberately cause an incident.

Indeed - but there are some accidents which, upon proper investigation, have turned out to have at least partial cause based on wilfully not following rules which are laid down for safety reasons.

One which immediately springs to mind is the one bottom right in the picture. Very much wilful rule breaking in that incident.

[a-driver]

I think we can all appreciate that no one sets out to deliberately cause an incident.

Indeed - but there are some accidents which, upon proper investigation, have turned out to have at least partial cause based on wilfully not following rules which are laid down for safety reasons.

One which immediately springs to mind is the one bottom right in the picture. Very much wilful rule breaking in that incident.

I think wilful rule breaking is extremely rare these days compared to back in the 70’s. Back then the work was tough but it was a job for life, you could get away with incidents.  Today, there’s been a reversal. Actual driving is far easier but it’s now significantly easier to lose your job. For a driver, I’d say it’s no longer a job for life. Wilful rule breaking today will get you caught, you’ve got your CCTV^▸ (Closed Circuit Tele Vision) cameras, OTDR^▸ (On Train Data Recorder) etc.

[TonyN]

Is Anyone able to explain why SWR^» (South Western Railway - about) trains are unable to get on and off the depot at Salisbury?

I don't know the area very well but looking at Google satellite view and open train times its not obvious its a long way from the tunnel to the station area.

[MVR S&T]

Is Anyone able to explain why SWR^» (South Western Railway - about) trains are unable to get on and off the depot at Salisbury?

I don't know the area very well but looking at Google satellite view and open train times its not obvious its a long way from the tunnel to the station area.

looks like all the area controlled by Salisbury panel signalbox is out of use, pending investigation being complete?

[grahame]

EDIT TO ADD^▸ (Automatic Dropping Device) that the post to which I refer is now hidden from public view. In my view it should be re-instated, but ultimately the view of the moderating team must be respected in such matters.

It is a very difficult call indeed for me, for the reasons you have stated.   I have stated in my "snip" comment that I am seeking the views of the wider moderator team. Its removal is precautionary at present; it can easily enough be put back, if appropriate, but if I left out in place while we decide, those extreme cases of legality you refer to could cause permanent damage.

Lots of thought given to this.  I have outlined my concern about publishing speculation on the forum while we await (and it is frustrating!) the facts and findings and it's been discussed amongst the moderator team. Not only are we looking at legal issues, but also at hurt potentially caused to those involved and the possibility of rumours and shares of what turns out to be wrong ... indeed we have witnessed, in the last 24 hours, initial reports of the incident starting with a derailment caused by an obstruction being stated "no such evidence" by the BTP^▸ (British Transport Police).

All of our members who have posted a few times have access to our "Frequent Posters" board.  It allows established members somewhat more freedom, and we require that members with access to that board do not share its material any wider.  The issues that caused us to snip the public post above would be mitigated were such a post to be made out of the public (guest) view, and mitigated further by "Frequent Poster" guidance.  That is far from saying "anything goes" - it does not - but I would remind members of the availability of the member's board and invite appropriate (re)posts of some material there.  I hope this provides you with a way forward.

[brooklea]

Is Anyone able to explain why SWR^» (South Western Railway - about) trains are unable to get on and off the depot at Salisbury?

I don't know the area very well but looking at Google satellite view and open train times its not obvious its a long way from the tunnel to the station area.

looks like all the area controlled by Salisbury panel signalbox is out of use, pending investigation being complete?

I can’t see that being the case, as trains from Cardiff to Salisbury and vv were running all day Monday, and Salisbury panel would have to be controlling those train movements between Beechgrove (just outside Warminster) and Salisbury.

[Alan Pettitt]

Trains running today Exeter to Salisbury.

[stuving]

BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) South Today at lunchtime was quite categorical - RAIB^▸ (Rail Accident Investigation Branch) are investigating why the SWR^» (South Western Railway - about) train passed a red signal, and looking at the condition of the rails.

The report did try to distinguish between BTP^▸ (British Transport Police), controlling the site, and RIAIB doing the investigation work. I have an idea that it suits RAIB fine to work behind the police, and in particular they are happy never to meet a journalist. They accept that the police will want to know if anything points towards a criminal investigation, and intervene if they are concerned about conserving evidence according to the rules.

More upbeatly, the SWR driver is now reported as less badly injured than was feared.

[bradshaw]

RAIB^▸ (Rail Accident Investigation Branch) announced preliminary result
Seen here on Twitter
https://twitter.com/philatrail/status/1455568926469808131?s=21
Website source
https://dft-newsroom.prgloo.com/news/raib-statement-salisbury-rail-accident
Edited to give DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) website source

[JayMac]

In thread post as an alternative to earlier attachment.

RAIB^▸ (Rail Accident Investigation Branch) Statement: Salisbury rail accident​
2nd November 2021

The following statement was given this afternoon by Andrew Hall, Deputy Chief Inspector, Rail Accident Investigation Branch.

"A team of RAIB inspectors arrived on site on Sunday evening and were joined yesterday by additional inspectors and our support team. We are working alongside partner organisations including the Office of Rail and Road (ORR^» (Office of Rail and Road formerly Office of Rail Regulation - about)) and BTP^▸ (British Transport Police). Our investigation is progressing well.

"Yesterday our focus was on evidence retrieval, we have been working with Police scene officers to examine the train. We have also undertaken a close examination of the track and signalling in the area and started to talk to those involved. Analysis of downloads from the trains’ data recorders, electronic data from the signalling system and CCTV^▸ (Closed Circuit Tele Vision) imagery is ongoing.

"From the initial evidence we have collected, we know that that the passage of the Great Western train travelling from Eastleigh across Salisbury Tunnel Junction was being protected by a red signal. At this junction, trains coming from Eastleigh merge with those from Basingstoke, so the South Western service coming from Basingstoke was required to stop at that signal.

"Unfortunately, it did not stop and struck the side of the Great Western train at an angle such that both trains derailed and ran alongside each other into the tunnel just beyond the junction.

"Initial evidence indicates that the South Western train driver applied the brakes as it approached the junction and the red signal, but the train was unable to stop before passing the signal.

"This evidence suggests that the most likely cause of this was wheelslide, almost certainly a result of low adhesion between the wheels and the track. We are continuing to pursue this as a line of investigation amongst others.

"In consultation with other parties, we continue to work with the railway recovery engineers to ensure that the site is handed back in the shortest time possible. We intend to begin releasing parts of the site back to Network Rail later today.

"Later this week we’ll be releasing the initial findings of the investigation, these will be publicly available on our website."

[TaplowGreen]

Leaves on the line then?

[hoover50]

Leaves on the line then?

Or perhaps an insufficient number of RHTT^▸ (Rail Head Treatment Train) workings over that stretch of line in the days leading up to the collision?

[a-driver]

As I suspected. Unfortunately this highlights an issue with the TPWS^▸ (Train Protection and Warning System) system.

[IndustryInsider]

Yes, looks like the root cause is wheel slide then.  Probably what most of us within the industry suspected.

Further investigations will no doubt check whether the railhead treatment plan for the location was appropriate and followed properly, and that the driver was driving the train up to the point of impact as per SWR^» (South Western Railway - about) instructions (and whether those instructions are appropriate).