South Western Railways Waterloo - Bristol services axed

[whole diary]

[Mark A]

I remembered this thread touched on through services in the North East when I saw this news from The BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page)

A train company is planning to scrap one of its train services to London due to low passenger numbers and a lack of trains.

LNER^» (London North Eastern Railway - about) said it would no longer run from Sunderland to London Kings Cross from December, with the service instead starting in Newcastle.

The operator said the service had low passenger numbers since it was introduced in 2015 and passengers could still travel to London using other companies.

or am I getting confuse with this daily service

07:08 Middlesbrough
07:15 Thornaby
08:13 York
10:20 Kings Cross

15:27 Kings Cross
17:21 York
18:08 Thornaby
18:18 Middlesbrough

The morning train's arrival from Sunderland at Kings Cross being just after 9am, is very peak-timey, with fares to match. A Sunderland resident is looking at £550 for a return to London first class on the LNER through train, or £275 standard.

Book in advance, and that brings rail travel costs down to £217 there and back, advance 1sts available for ~£350. Return tickets aren't sold.

And indeed, the Sunderland LNER service is a separate train to the one from Middlesbrough (and turning to Middlesbrough, this looks to be peak time in both directions, so... 1st Class both ways is £616 or £387 standard class, though there does seem to be rather more availability of advance fares).

A quick dip into National Express coach prices from either Sunderland or Middlesbrough looks to be about £15-£25 each way with a journey time of around 7 hours.

Mark

[paul7575]

The eventual aim is a direct Kings Cross - Middlesbrough via Northallerton service every 2 hours. AFAICT^▸ ('as far as I can tell') that might take passengers off Grand Central’s Sunderland open access which doesn’t directly connect with Middlesbrough, but picks up passengers from the area at Eaglescliffe.

The Middlesbrough trains are and will be completely separate to the once a day Sunderland service.  The relatively short lived Sunderland runs in marginal time via Newcastle, ie the early up train leaves Heaton depot and runs empty to Sunderland through Newcastle, then back to Newcastle in service, presumably it then heads off in the normal timings for a Newcastle starter.  Same for the late down train, it runs to Sunderland from Newcastle, then empty back to Heaton depot via Newcastle.  So effectively the Sunderland service doesn’t require additional rolling stock.

Coincidentally, the empty stock for the first Middlesbrough up service runs empty through Sunderland, and vice versa at end of the day.  (It does make you wonder if those services could serve Sunderland instead.)

Paul

[Mark A]

Fast forward to July 2024: not saying that the loss of the service affected any if the outcomes as there are far greater forces at play* but happy to see the backs of a couple of the transport secretaries who oversaw those times.

Mark

*HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) phase 2a being a consideration asfar as the rail network is concerned.

[grahame]

Fast forward to July 2024: not saying that the loss of the service affected any if the outcomes as there are far greater forces at play* but happy to see the backs of a couple of the transport secretaries who oversaw those times.

Mark

*HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) phase 2a being a consideration asfar as the rail network is concerned.

I am getting some sleep ... running a wind-down environmental hustings meeting this afternoon and I will be working on transport futures for the area.    Yes, I have read Labour's ideas, and listened to our new Lib Dem MP^▸ (Member of Parliament, or Mile Post - a method of measuring the railway in miles and chains from a starting point - usually London, depending on context)'s views and look to see how we can ask them to move things along appropriate lines for passengers but also in line with their policies, requirments, dogmas.

[Mark A]

A quick reflection at the weekend that we're still in the month that, three years back and mid-pandemic, saw the last Saturday Bristol to Waterloo services, at a time when the Saturday services in particular were rapidly rebuilding their passenger numbers.

Given the years of diversions east of Reading to Euston looming large, cutting these really does now look to have been one of the less inspired moves by the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about). If I never see that advertising screen again it'll be too soon.

Here's that photo of the last Saturday morning service at Bath Spa. I revisited the station the following Saturday at the time it would have run, place was dead.

Mark

[ChrisB]

Given the years of diversions east of Reading to Euston looming large,

Eh?? 
A few days a year - 18 at most for one year. Might all add up to a month in total.

[Mark A]

Now look at it again from the POV of someone who's tied up weekdays and uses trains at weekends.

Mark

[ChrisB]

So even fewer days diverted to Euston then. About 2 (1 weekend) a year on average, the worst year being 3 weekends (6 days)

[Mark A]

Graham posting observations on train fares in January '24 in another thread:

The Bristol / Bath to London day return fare, it's been withdrawn, yes?

There are still two off peak day return fares Bath Spa to London via Salisbury and Warminster there - first class and standard class - according to BRfares. Still there from 2nd January too. Price is £66.20 (adult, no railcard)

If you want something a bit different, try an anytime day return from Portway Park and Ride to London via Warminster and Salisbury at £43.40 - it's restricted in that you may not arrive into Waterloo before 10:00, but there are no restrictions on the return time.

Checking this again, April 2025 and the Bath Spa - Waterloo off-peak day return is still on the system (using the National Rail web site, I can't find it on the GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) site which appears to ignore 'Via Salisbury'). It's now priced at £72.60, so, a nearly 10% increase on the January 2024 figure. A railcard brings that down to £48.35.

Back in 2022, in the last days of the through trains, the 'With railcard' fare... was it around £33? In which case the present day fare is a 46% increase on the 2022 fare. While the connections at Salisbury are rather improved on those at the time the through trains disappeared, it still 'Won't do'™.

Oh and the Severn Beach maneuvre still applies.

While checking this, the journey I was actually after was Bath Spa to Basingstoke in a day, and the best value for that is a day return at ~£21 for a mid-day arrival.

It always surprises me how far Basingstoke is from London. Even farther now given the state of the up main east of Woking, but perhaps that's been fixed.

Mark

[Mark A]

The plot thickens. Thinking to check Bath Spa - Paddington to compare current costs vs via Salisbury, neither the National Rail site nor GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) will list the super off peak return fare. This might be me: I'll have another look on... another day. (Off peak Bath Spa to Paddington with a railcard comes up at £69.70, the super off peak fare is listed on brfares.com as £50.50).

Mark

[ChrisB]

Have you checked brfares.com?

If it’s still there, then it’s in the fares manual & the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company)(s) are suppressing it….if they aren’t listed, then the fare has been withdrawn

[grahame]

The plot thickens. Thinking to check Bath Spa - Paddington to compare current costs vs via Salisbury, neither the National Rail site nor GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) will list the super off peak return fare. This might be me: I'll have another look on... another day. (Off peak Bath Spa to Paddington with a railcard comes up at £69.70, the super off peak fare is listed on brfares.com as £50.50).

Mark

I have found that the GWR ticket purchase system is failing to honour "via" requests but has been honouring "avoid" so you're likely to find that it's missing if you do "via Saisbury" but offered if you do "avoid Reading".  May be that has been fixed and I'm not around long enough to check just at the moment

[grahame]

The plot thickens. Thinking to check Bath Spa - Paddington to compare current costs vs via Salisbury, neither the National Rail site nor GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) will list the super off peak return fare. This might be me: I'll have another look on... another day. (Off peak Bath Spa to Paddington with a railcard comes up at £69.70, the super off peak fare is listed on brfares.com as £50.50).

Mark

I have found that the GWR ticket purchase system is failing to honour "via" requests but has been honouring "avoid" so you're likely to find that it's missing if you do "via Saisbury" but offered if you do "avoid Reading".  May be that has been fixed and I'm not around long enough to check just at the moment

Yep ... "Avoid Reading" gives it

[grahame]

By the way - the web site ignoring "via" is not limited to "via Salisbury".   Also had problems getting Melksham to Newcastle via a single change in Cheltenham Spa - single change off the 07:21  and with limited mobility much better than via Paddington and Kings Cross.  When I asked "not via Reading", the Cheltenham Spa route came up.

[Mark A]

Thanks for this, thought it was me. Now I know this I've just run the searches again and it's easier to see what's going on.

The issue with the cost seems to be SWR^» (South Western Railway - about) as the fare setter, and the off-peak/super off-peak structure that they introduced in the years since the through trains ran, which has put the prices up.

The £48.35 day return fare allows a 10:20 am arrival at Waterloo and return travel in the evening peak.

Later in the day, that day return fare is undercut by the super off-peak period return at £37.60 (with the return half valid for a month but unlike the off peak day return not valid in the evening peak).

Mark