South Western Railways Waterloo - Bristol services axed

[whole diary]

[IndustryInsider]

And for how many years have we been told "JAM TOMORROW" WRT^▸ (with regard to ) to rolling stock provision and capacity improvements ?

The 769s were first mentioned here as - I recall - a relatively quick and cheap way of getting more trains compared to new build - in the spring of 2018. Not sure when the plan was to have them running, but it does seem to have taken a lot longer than most of us would probably have wished - approaching 4 years now.

Spring 2019 was the initial target date, so we're probably looking at three years late at least.

https://twitter.com/philatrail/status/987002846846636032?s=21

[Clan Line]

Saved me walking up to count them !



Number of 5 coach trains today -  ZERO !

[broadgage]

This isn't a 5 coach train - this is a GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) 5 coach train !!!              (1012 from Warminster this morning - see my earlier post)



RTT^» (Real Time Trains - website) has now been amended - that leaves the mid afternoon "shuffle" as the only 5 coach movements here today.

3 is the new 5.    5 is the new 9

[Mark A]

I've been spending a bit of time with Messrs Pettitt and Comfort's book "The Regional Railways Story" and it's certainly rich in material - with some of it covering the time that Wales and West launched those Portsmouth to Liverpool Lime Street and London Waterloo to Manchester - as well as the Cardiff to Waterloo services (now and for the next few weeks, Bristol to Waterloo...).

Those trains were greeted in the media by bemusement but which, as the author states, very much found a market. They were particularly well used between Bristol and Crewe, partly because Crosscountry, at the time, didn't make good provision between Bristol and Manchester. I've not rediscovered the quote yet, but the authors state that those trains, per carriage, achieved passenger numbers that would have made certain managers on the intercity network jealous.

Let's turn to current Crosscountry services from Bristol to Manchester. The first train of the day isn't Crosscountry at all - it's change at Newport and then via Shrewsbury and Crewe arriving Manchester at 10:11 at a cost of £93 anytime return, and I am so up for that journey.

The next few services are via Birmingham - but 1 or 2 changes and the connections with a single change offer the full Bristol Waterloo experience of an hour's wait - albeit at Birmingham rather than Salisbury, an experience that will set you back £203. Still quicker than via the Marches line, but not as much as they could be, and twice the price. I can't recall the time taken by the pre-covid hourly direct trains, I think they were timed at about 3 hours end to end.

Also, a moment's reflection on the time that it was possible to use Didcot as an interchange into Crosscountry services...

So, now, we're in a time when Crosscountry has walked away from Bristol to Manchester, and Transport for Wales are strengthening services up the Welsh borders and to Manchester - and Bristol can benefit as long as the connections at Newport aren't too dreadful but an obstacle is going to be - to return to Lee's word, a lack of coherence, applied in services and policy.

Turning back to the regional railways story, the book doesn't quite explicitly state, in one sentence, that, as acknowledged as long ago as the 1968 transport act, these services are going to lose money but have a social value - so the railways might as well run them in a way that is useful to people, especially if this can be done in a way that brings them close to covering their costs...

The quote that's currently in my face is from one Paul King's strategic review (the output of which was apparently lost at privatisation). "The conclusions were desparately simple: Regional Railways should concentrate on inter-urban services and those that could contribute to a reduction in urban road congestion."

With the withdrawal of the Bristol to Waterloo train, it's this sort of interurban inconnectivity that's lost, and the Bristol to Waterloos are just the latest in a catalogue of services from various providers that, over a number of years, have gone from this one particular region. It would be interesting to know if there's another part of the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) that's had its rail connectivity reduced to this extent or whether this is just a subjective impression.

[IndustryInsider]

So, now, we're in a time when Crosscountry has walked away from Bristol to Manchester, and Transport for Wales are strengthening services up the Welsh borders and to Manchester - and Bristol can benefit as long as the connections at Newport aren't too dreadful but an obstacle is going to be - to return to Lee's word, a lack of coherence, applied in services and policy.

Has there been any indication as to whether these trains will or won't return at some point?  Along with the Southampton/Reading to Newcastle hourly services?  CrossCountry have been running half the trains, but double the length since the pandemic, and see very few staff related cancellations as a result - but many of the direct journeys these trains would normally provide are being badly missed.  IMHO^▸ (in my humble opinion) more than the direct SWR^» (South Western Railway - about) train from Bristol to Waterloo will be.

Going between two large cities such as Bristol to Manchester via Newport featuring one of TfW's often crowded Marches Route trains (I await any potential strengthening with interest!) really shouldn't be an option taking at least an hour longer than the old direct service...even with a good connection.

[Bmblbzzz]

I'm going to Manchester from Bristol next week. The service is so good that I've opted for Megabus. It's actually quicker, because it's a direct and non-stop service: the quickest services are 3h40, the longest 4h30, and it's far, far cheaper.

[Mark A]

Going between two large cities such as Bristol to Manchester via Newport featuring one of TfW's often crowded Marches Route trains (I await any potential strengthening with interest!) really shouldn't be an option taking at least an hour longer than the old direct service...even with a good connection.

Asking TfW via Twitter a moment ago, the Cardiff to Manchester services using Mark IV carriages starts in 2023. That's only... is it 4 sets, so not all services of course, and I should have asked them at the same time when the other services on the line receives new stock with more space. Their web site states 2023 for Cardiff to Liverpool, this via Wrexham so not Crewe. They've a page on revised dates for new services and yes, it appears that some of the runs along the borders line will still be two or three carriage trains - if for the Marches line they can clarify the dates, the increase in seating and frequency of services that'll be helpful and I'll suggest it to them.

https://news.tfw.wales/news/transport-for-wales-outline-dates-for-additional-train-services

[Mark A]

So, in the return from Graham's FOI^▸ (Freedom of Information) request... that list of redacted services that could be scrapped to save the taxpayer money. Didn't expect one of those to be HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) to Yorkshire and another to be the Manchester - Bradford - Leeds link.

[anthony215]

Going between two large cities such as Bristol to Manchester via Newport featuring one of TfW's often crowded Marches Route trains (I await any potential strengthening with interest!) really shouldn't be an option taking at least an hour longer than the old direct service...even with a good connection.

Asking TfW via Twitter a moment ago, the Cardiff to Manchester services using Mark IV carriages starts in 2023. That's only... is it 4 sets, so not all services of course, and I should have asked them at the same time when the other services on the line receives new stock with more space. Their web site states 2023 for Cardiff to Liverpool, this via Wrexham so not Crewe. They've a page on revised dates for new services and yes, it appears that some of the runs along the borders line will still be two or three carriage trains - if for the Marches line they can clarify the dates, the increase in seating and frequency of services that'll be helpful and I'll suggest it to them.

https://news.tfw.wales/news/transport-for-wales-outline-dates-for-additional-train-services

1 in every 3 services via the marches line id supposed to be loco hauled from 2023 although talk is tfw are hunting for even more mark4 stock.

Further suggestions seem.to be that tfw may order either additional class 197s or extra centre carriages.

 From what I've been able to gather most of the Cardiff to Holyhead services will be loco hauled and the west wales/swansea to Manchester services will either be pairs of class 197s or a 5 carriage loco hauled rake.

 The Cardiff to Liverpool services were supposed to be a class 197 between Cardiff to Shrewsbury/chester then running as pairs into Liverpool.  I personally can see the Liverpool services getting overcrowded as they were popular years ago before they got withdrawn by ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) .

Friday we should see the first class 231 arrive at canton depot.

I think Swr/DFT^▸ (Department for Transport) need to relook at withdrawing the Bristol to London waterloo service. The tories need some good press coverage anyway

[bobm]

From today's Hansard

Dr Andrew Murrison
(South West Wiltshire) (Con)
My right hon. Friend is right to say that not every city, town and village will benefit from this plan, but one thing is for sure, which is that they will all be paying for it and there are opportunity costs. Does he understand the disquiet of my constituents about HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) and now this plan, given that he has limited bandwidth and what he is spending on one project is not being spent on upgrading services elsewhere? Will he throw my constituents a small crumb by delaying the planned closure of services from Bristol Temple Meads to Waterloo via Trowbridge and Salisbury, pending a proper consultation that will show very clearly that the Great Western Railway service he thinks duplicates services run by South Western Railway is over capacity now and certainly will be once he closes the GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) service?

Grant Shapps
My right hon. Friend is right that every decision has a trade-off, which is why it is important that we think about the country as a whole. He will be pleased to hear that I was down in the south-west yesterday using South Western Railway, and I appreciate the importance of that service. I will ensure that he meets the Rail Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry (Chris Heaton-Harris), to discuss his specific concerns.

[Lee]

The petition has just reached 6000 signatures 

[grahame]

The petition has just reached 6000 signatures 

I looked back at my slides for the Trowbridge meeting on 20th of last month, and it was just under 3,000 when I prepared them - so it has more than doubled since. Any idea that this would fizzle after we had aired our grievances was misguided.

Thank you to everyone who's signed and asked others to sign.

You can still write to your MP^▸ (Member of Parliament) - although you can't sign the petition twice, you CAN write to them a second time with an update.   See http://www.passenger.chat/mpletter.html if you would like some thoughts on what to say - a letter template which you can tune and cut and paste.

[grahame]

Update / status report at http://waterloo.savethetrain.org.uk/stat_20211122.pdf - labelled "version 0.9" - please let me know of any significant errors that need correcting!

[TaplowGreen]

Update / status report at http://waterloo.savethetrain.org.uk/stat_20211122.pdf - labelled "version 0.9" - please let me know of any significant errors that need correcting!

Page 3 - I think "fete accompli" should probably read "fait accompli"?

[ellendune]

Update / status report at http://waterloo.savethetrain.org.uk/stat_20211122.pdf - labelled "version 0.9" - please let me know of any significant errors that need correcting!

Page 4

In practise - if you change at Salisbury your short wait is only to / from the local train to
Basingstoke where you have another change and wait (for the train that's come from Salisbury
anyway) for Woking, Clapham Junction or Waterloo.
In practise - from Keynsham or Oldfield Park you'll need to change at Westbury as well as
Salisbury
In practise - whilst there ARE lifts, changing at Bath can be problematic ... and then you end
up in Paddington and if you're headed for south London there are more lifts and stairs to
navigate onto and off the underground.

 

I think this should be "In practice"

Now 2 years since we were promised that all trains would be 5 carriages but last
week (for example) just 14 carriages were operation on the hourly semi-fast service - that's
just 56%.

This doesn't make sense to me is there something missing?