Westbury-Southampton Locals, Brighton summer services

[whole diary]

[Jim]

Thanks for that. You mention specifics regarding Dilton Marsh , what about Dean and Mottisfont & Dunbridge?

Also , you may be interested in the link below.
http://www.savethetrain.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=2157.msg5057#msg5057

"Yesterday evening I arrived at Southampton Central to go home on the 22.22 only to find that the platform indicated was "bus."  This train also takes in Dunbridge and Dean on the way.  The bus turned up, took a circumlocutous route to Romsey, missed out D & D and arrived in Salisbury about 23.20.  No one at Southampton knew the reason - does anyone know?"

knowing this company, it was because the driver wasn't told he had to go there BUT last time there was more than 1 coach, so that might have something to do with it?

[whistleblower]

I don't know why the 22.22 was cancelled.  I was at home cuddling a cold beer by then .  I suspect it was a knock on from the 1530 Cardiff-Portsmouth failing at Southampton earlier (door probs) and the back working being cancelled.  The 1630 was also running about 40 minutes late due to a signalling problem at Bath.  Maybe Control just threw in the towel at that stage!

It's possible that the coach was booked to bypass Dean and Dunbridge to save time and they ran a taxi through there instead.  They (we?) often do that for Freshford and Avoncliff when there are buses between Bath and Westbury.

Jim can confirm this because he is usually bus monitor and rides around all day nattering to the driver

As to passenger numbers at Dean and Dunbridge, they're much the same as Dilton Marsh.  Half the time there's nobody off peak.  The problem with Dunbridge is that there is no bus service and they rely more on the train than most people so I hope SWT^▸ (South West Trains) look after them.

But it raises the moral question of whose responsibility it is to provide them with transport.  If local or national government want them to have a public transport service then it has to be paid for from public money.  You can't expect a commercial company to supply a service without reward - and still have to pay a premium to the government.  Imagine yourself as a CEO^▸ (Chief Executive Officer) explaining to the shareholders of your company that the reason they were not getting a dividend was because you were feeling philanthropic towards the people of Dunbridge who couldn't get to Romsey to get their groceries.

[Jim]

I don't know why the 22.22 was cancelled.  I was at home cuddling a cold beer by then .  I suspect it was a knock on from the 1530 Cardiff-Portsmouth failing at Southampton earlier (door probs) and the back working being cancelled.  The 1630 was also running about 40 minutes late due to a signalling problem at Bath.  Maybe Control just threw in the towel at that stage!

It's possible that the coach was booked to bypass Dean and Dunbridge to save time and they ran a taxi through there instead.  They (we?) often do that for Freshford and Avoncliff when there are buses between Bath and Westbury.

Jim can confirm this because he is usually bus monitor and rides around all day nattering to the driver

As to passenger numbers at Dean and Dunbridge, they're much the same as Dilton Marsh.  Half the time there's nobody off peak.  The problem with Dunbridge is that there is no bus service and they rely more on the train than most people so I hope SWT^▸ (South West Trains) look after them.

But it raises the moral question of whose responsibility it is to provide them with transport.  If local or national government want them to have a public transport service then it has to be paid for from public money.  You can't expect a commercial company to supply a service without reward - and still have to pay a premium to the government.  Imagine yourself as a CEO^▸ (Chief Executive Officer) explaining to the shareholders of your company that the reason they were not getting a dividend was because you were feeling philanthropic towards the people of Dunbridge who couldn't get to Romsey to get their groceries.

1. I belive that was the reason why the 2222 was canxed
2. I belive this is what happened to Dean & Dunbridge when I was bussed
3. Since Wilts don't do our Rail Replacment anymore, I have been off the nattering all day scene, but I do monitor bustitution as much as I can
4. Agree there, since 'Cango' packed up, train is the only hope for Dunbridge, but I am sure SWT will look after them VERY well. I do suppose though it means they won't be our stations anymore!

[Lee]

4. Agree there, since 'Cango' packed up, train is the only hope for Dunbridge, but I am sure SWT^▸ (South West Trains) will look after them VERY well. I do suppose though it means they won't be our stations anymore!

Thanks for the info on the cancellations , Jim. I hope you have have written confirmation from SWT on the excellent treatment that Mottisfont & Dunbridge passengers can look forward to 

Seriously though , I do know what the service level for Dean and Mottisfont & Dunbridge will be from December 2007.

From SWT :

"The Salisbury - Southampton - Romsey service will replace the existing Totton to Romsey service in December 2007. Calls will be made at Dean and Dunbridge at certain times of the day as specified by the Department for Transport, these will be mainly from start of service until 0900, 1200, 1500, 1700 until 1900 and 2200 from Salisbury, and until 0900, 1100, 1400, 1700 until 1900, 2100 and 2400 towards Salisbury.  Obviously this is subject to change but I hope this gives you a rough guide to the frequency of services we may offer."

I then asked them whether this meant a 5 - 7 train per day cut for both stations from what we have now :

"I would assume we are looking at that figure (leaving 13 - 15 trains per weekday - Lee) but obviously this is yet to be decided.  Once a decision has been made the information will be put onto our website."

As to passenger numbers at Dean and Dunbridge, they're much the same as Dilton Marsh.  Half the time there's nobody off peak.  The problem with Dunbridge is that there is no bus service and they rely more on the train than most people so I hope SWT look after them.

But it raises the moral question of whose responsibility it is to provide them with transport.  If local or national government want them to have a public transport service then it has to be paid for from public money.  You can't expect a commercial company to supply a service without reward - and still have to pay a premium to the government.  Imagine yourself as a CEO^▸ (Chief Executive Officer) explaining to the shareholders of your company that the reason they were not getting a dividend was because you were feeling philanthropic towards the people of Dunbridge who couldn't get to Romsey to get their groceries.

Thanks again for that , whistleblower. I have to say that I agree with your analysis.

However , according to a recent letter from Tom Harris to Andrew Murrison MP^▸ (Member of Parliament) , the transport minister seems to think that FGW^▸ (First Great Western) could still call at Dean and Mottisfont & Dunbridge even though they will not be obligated to do so......

[Lee]

In summary , from December 2007 this means :

DEAN AND MOTTISFONT & DUNBRIDGE - Service reduced from 20 to 13 - 15 trains per day , a 25% cut.

DILTON MARSH - Service reduced from 21 to 10 trains per day , a 50% cut.

Further points :

1) The existing stops in the Portsmouth - Cardiff trains at Dean and Mottisfont & Dunbridge are unlikely to be kept because a) the trains could be speeded up if they were removed , b) the number of passengers affected is unlikely to be great enough to warrant their retention (in FGW^▸ (First Great Western)'s eyes) and c) it would mean that FGW would be calling at these stations at around the same times as SWT^▸ (South West Trains) plan to.

2) Extra stops in the Portsmouth - Cardiff service are unlikely to be added at Dilton Marsh because a) they would slow the services down and b) FGW have proved conclusively that they need the "recovery time" that is built into the current timetable.

[Lee]

Dean and Mottisfont & Dunbridge SLC2 Specification from December 2007 :

Route F Salisbury ^ Romsey (via Southampton Central, Eastleigh and Chandlers Ford) SLC^▸ (Service Level Commitment) 2

1. Route Definition

1.1 Services shall be provided between Salisbury, Chandlers Ford and Romsey in the form of a Loop Pattern of service, calling at: Romsey, Redbridge,Millbrook (Hants), Southampton Central, St Denys, Swaythling,Southampton Airport Parkway, Eastleigh and Chandler^s Ford.

1.2 Limited Stops shall be provided at Dean and Dunbridge.

2. Service Pattern - Monday to Friday

2.1 Between and including the Early and Late Service, services shall be provided from Salisbury to Romsey at hourly intervals, calling at the stations specified in Paragraph 1.1.

2.2 Before the Early Service, one additional service shall be provided from Salisbury calling at Dean and Dunbridge and then Romsey. This service will then call at all stations to Southampton Central in Paragraph 1.1 via Chandlers Ford and Eastleigh, then back to Salisbury via Southampton Central and Romsey.

2.3 Between and including the Early and Late Service, services shall be provided from Romsey to Salisbury at hourly intervals, calling at the stations specified in Paragraph 1.1.

3. Service Pattern ^ Saturday

3.1 Between and including the Early and Late Service, services shall be provided from Salisbury to Romsey at hourly intervals, calling at the stations specified in Paragraph 1.1.

3.2 Before the Early Service, one additional service shall be provided from Salisbury calling at Dean and Dunbridge and then Romsey. This service will then call at all stations to Southampton Central in Paragraph 1.1 via Chandlers Ford and Eastleigh, then back to Salisbury via Southampton Central and Romsey.

3.3 Between and including the Early and Late Service, services shall be provided from Romsey to Salisbury at hourly intervals, calling at the stations specified in Paragraph 1.1.

4. Service Pattern - Sundays

4.1 Between and including the Early and Late Service, services shall be provided from Salisbury to Romsey at hourly intervals, calling at the stations specified in Paragraph 1.1.

4.2 Before the Early Service, one additional service shall be provided from Salisbury calling at Dean and Dunbridge and then Romsey. This service will then call at all stations in Paragraph 1.1 routed via Chandlers Ford, Eastleigh and Southampton Central then back to Salisbury.

4.3 Between and including the Early and Late Services, services shall be provided from Romsey to Salisbury at hourly intervals, calling at the stations specified in Paragraph 1.1.

5. Limited Stops

Dean and Dunbridge shall be provided with calls by services that enable commuting and leisure opportunities as follows:

5.1 Mondays to Fridays and Saturdays

(a) Services arriving in Southampton Central between 0715 and 0930.
(b) Services arriving in Salisbury between 0700 and 0930.
(c) Services departing Salisbury between 1630 and 1915.
(d) Services departing Southampton Central between 1615 and 1900.
(e) The Late Service from Romsey and Southampton Central.
(f) The Late Service from Salisbury via Southampton Central.
(g) At least two other off-peak services departing Salisbury and Romsey between 0945 and 1545, in both directions.

5.2 Sundays

(a) At least six services shall call in both directions, to include the Late Services from Salisbury and Romsey (via Chandlers Ford and Southampton Central).

[Lee]

Seriously though , I do know what the service level for Dean and Mottisfont & Dunbridge will be from December 2007.

From SWT^▸ (South West Trains) :

"The Salisbury - Southampton - Romsey service will replace the existing Totton to Romsey service in December 2007. Calls will be made at Dean and Dunbridge at certain times of the day as specified by the Department for Transport, these will be mainly from start of service until 0900, 1200, 1500, 1700 until 1900 and 2200 from Salisbury, and until 0900, 1100, 1400, 1700 until 1900, 2100 and 2400 towards Salisbury.  Obviously this is subject to change but I hope this gives you a rough guide to the frequency of services we may offer."

I then asked them whether this meant a 5 - 7 train per day cut for both stations from what we have now :

"I would assume we are looking at that figure (leaving 13 - 15 trains per weekday - Lee) but obviously this is yet to be decided.  Once a decision has been made the information will be put onto our website."

In summary , from December 2007 this means :

DEAN AND MOTTISFONT & DUNBRIDGE - Service reduced from 20 to 13 - 15 trains per day , a 25% cut.

It would appear that things have changed.....

From SWT :

"On weekdays, the Salisbury - Romsey via Chandlers Ford/Totton services will operate an hourly service. Dean and Mottisfont & Dunbridge will have an hourly service during the morning and evening peaks and a two-hourly service off-peak, in both directions. A similar frequency operates on Saturdays. On Sundays, they will be served on a two-hourly basis in each direction."

"On weekdays and Saturdays, the proposal for Dean and Mottisfont & Dunbridge is: 13 services towards Salisbury, 12 services towards Romsey. On Sundays, the proposal is for eight trains in each direction."

"First Great Western are proposing five services towards Salisbury and four towards Romsey on weekdays."

1) The SWT weekday service to both stations will be WAY above that specified by the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) - and a 25% increase compared to the current service provided by FGW^▸ (First Great Western).

2) I am reliably informed that the "surprise" FGW calls will NOT be provided by Cardiff - Portsmouth / Brighton services.

[Graz]

Now that is a pleasant surprise- made even more so by the First Great Western calls!

I'm guessing that the First Great Western trains will originate from Westbury or Bristol Temple Meads- although, is there any hope they may originate from Swindon?

It's surprising South West Trains decide to surpass the expectations by the DFT^▸ (Department for Transport), where as FGW^▸ (First Great Western)  (sometimes- not always) barely meet theirs.

[Timmer]

It's surprising South West Trains decide to surpass the expectations by the DFT^▸ (Department for Transport), where as FGW^▸ (First Great Western)  (sometimes- not always) barely meet theirs.

It's not surprising. FGW have got along way to go to get anywhere near SWT^▸ (South West Trains) in terms of running a decent service. Sadly FGW being part of Putting shareholders First group doesn't help as First's reputation for a lower standard of service that has affected their bus companies in parts of the country seems to have prevailed over this franchise whereas other First rail franchises seem to do allright . It was a sad day when First bought out Great Western Trains, though the ex BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) managers who had shares in Great Western Trains Company at the time would totally disagree with me 

[Lee]

Now that is a pleasant surprise- made even more so by the First Great Western calls!

I'm guessing that the First Great Western trains will originate from Westbury or Bristol Temple Meads- although, is there any hope they may originate from Swindon?

It's surprising South West Trains decide to surpass the expectations by the DFT^▸ (Department for Transport), where as FGW^▸ (First Great Western)  (sometimes- not always) barely meet theirs.

Yes , it is indeed a pleasant surprise that Dean and Mottisfont & Dunbridge will have 34 trains per day from December 2007 - a 75% increase in total from what they have now.

My understanding is that FGW will have to adhere to the following specification :

F3 WESTBURY ^ SOUTHAMPTON CENTRAL

1 Route Definition

1.1 Services shall be provided between Westbury and Southampton Central calling at Warminster, Salisbury and Romsey.

1.2 Limited stops shall be provided at Dilton Marsh, Dean and Dunbridge.

1.3 Services shall be joined to services specified in Route F2 (Bristol Temple Meads - Westbury)

2 Frequency

2.1 Mondays to Fridays

(a) Between and including the Early and Late Services, four services from Westbury shall be provided. One service shall arrive at Southampton Central between 0745 and 0830 and another shall arrive between 1915 and 2015.

(b) Between 0600 and 0630, a service shall be provided from Salisbury to Westbury.

(c) Between 0715 and 0745, a service shall be provided from Warminster to Westbury.

(d) Between and including the Early and Late Services, five services from Southampton Central shall be provided. One service shall depart from Southampton Central between 1700 and 1900.

(e) One service need not be joined to a service in Route F2.

3 Limited Stops (in each direction.)

Stops specified in this section may be provided by services specified in Route F1 (Cardiff Central -Portsmouth Harbour)

3.1 Dilton Marsh
(a) On Mondays to Fridays between 0600 and 2359, five services shall call at a maximum interval of three hours.

3.2 Dean, Dunbridge
(a) On Mondays to Fridays , two services shall call.

I am not privy to the exact timetabling of any of the above services , and that process is by no means done & dusted. However , if the information from SWT^▸ (South West Trains) is correct , then FGW will also be providing services to Dean and Mottisfont & Dunbridge ABOVE those specified by the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about).

Regarding services to / from Swindon (via Melksham) , I believe that the following FGW quote still applies.

"But it's unlikely we will increase the number of trains going to Melksham unless we get some form of sponsorship from a third party to make it financially viable."

Realistically , this means Wiltshire County Council funding. I dont hold out a lot of hope for this , as the current WCC^▸ (Wiltshire County Council (Until March 2009)) view is as follows :

Wiltshire County Council is in agreement with your assessment of the value of the rail service at Melksham. However the Council has no powers to direct the rail industry. Decisions about what service to provide are made by First Great Western (FGW) acting under its franchise contract with the Department for Transport.

The Council seeks to persuade and influence the decision makers in order to protect and improve rail services in the County. Council officers are currently working with FGW to improve understanding of the potential business available from a better service on the Swindon - Melksham - Westbury corridor by making available County Council data and analysis. Council officers have recently met with both FGW and DfT to progress this work.

It should also be noted that Save The Train takes a slightly more positive view (link below.)
http://www.savethetrain.org.uk/melkshamrailway/204_An_update.html

"It looks like the technical group that's going to be looking at the case locally is indeed being chaired by the county, and after a slightly stuttery start that's going to be convened shortly.

Six months ago, I would have put our chance of getting an appropriate service on the line at a slim 5%, but now I'm thinking the figure is much higher. The early days of "Graham, we can't run a service just for you" were superceeded by "Melksham on its own doesn't justify a substantive service" and now I'm hearing / seeing real thought being put into what should be provided; with a single train allocated to the line, a two-hourly Swindon to Westbury is practical. As is a slightly less frequent Warminster to Swindon. Or a three-hourly Salisbury to Swindon. And if the discussions come down to "should we choose (a), (b) or (c) rather than "are we going to do anything at all", that's a positive step."

It remains to be seen whether the the technical group's WCC chair will "walk the walk" or merely "talk the talk."

[Lee]

A view from Alison Forster :

Thank you for your email. I appreciate that you are disappointed with the current timetable for Melksham.

The new timetable was based on the one specified in the Greater Western franchise bid. During the bid process and subsequently we made over 200 changes to the original draft proposals many of which came as a direct result of customer feedback in our consultation.

We also looked at all the other proposals from customers, some of which were rejected for commercial reasons, others because of the knock on effect to the rest of the timetable and others due to stock limitations. We must meet the Service Level Commitment set down on the franchise bid. We can also make changes beyond this (subject to approval), and it would not be accurate to suggest that the timetable is fully prescribed and we continue to review and monitor its operation with a view to future changes, but I cannot offer to add the additional service you suggest.

Thank you again for writing. I know that this will be disappointing but we continue to keep the timetable under review and I have noted your comments.

[Lee]

I have recieved this from the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) :

Thank you for your e-mail dated 18th May 2007 regarding Dean and Mottisfont Dunbridge services.

The Department for Transport issued a Stakeholder Briefing Document in March 2006 that laid out the specification against which bidders for the new South Western franchise were asked to submit their bids.  As part of this, the Department specified services to be operated between Salisbury and Romsey via Eastleigh.

To clarify the situation from 9th December 2007:

First Greater Western (FGW^▸ (First Great Western)) will no longer contractually be required to call at these stations (but will be permitted to do so if it wishes).  I understand that the operator will be operating a limited Westbury to Southampton shuttle service, which will call at both of these stations.
 
With regard to Dilton Marsh, the service which First Great Western intends to operate from December 2007 is currently subject to public consultation over the next 12 weeks.  The proposed service will be five services per day in each direction on Mondays to Saturdays, and four on Sundays.  I note that the current service exceeds the required minimum level.

South West Trains is required to operate at least 10 services a day, Monday to Saturday.  These services have been timetabled to ensure an approximate hourly service in both am and pm peaks in both directions Monday to Friday.  On Sundays, 6 services in each direction shall operate.  An early and a late service will operate on each day of the week.

This is at least equivalent to the current level of service provided by the current operator, First Greater Western, based on the present timetable.  I understand that from December 07 South West Trains is intending to operate a limited number of additional services calling at both Dean and Mottisfont Dunbridge over the minimum levels specified.