Money

[whole diary]

[signalandtelegraph]

Was thinking about this this morning.

Taking a step back from the general chaos of the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) region, FGW actually plough a lot of money into the region, and also First Group as a whole. First Great Eastern built new 360 desiros and TPEx have 185s as a side thought. Last time I checked FGW had to pay a LOT of money back to some silly accountant at the government, and yet they still decide to spend millions on refurbishing stations, the whole HST^▸ (High Speed Train) fleet (along with the new vehicles they acquired) and as much as we hate them they aren't really too bad, the whole DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) fleet is being done up, more staff are being employed, trains are being strengthened. The list goes on. One thing is for sure, First Group doesn't mind splashing out a bit!

Wessex Trains on the other hand; They had a Subsidy for their franchise and managed to refurbish the 150s, already falling apart when about to go back to FGW, 153369, 153329 and 2 158s I believe. What were Wessex doing with all the money they were being given?

First didn't build anything, the leasing companies procure, own & refurbish rolling stock and lease it to FGW at increased cost.This increased cost is what they are currently "splashing out".  Once the initial subsidy stops and they have to pay money back what will happen?  Will they just hand back the keys and walk away?  Will they cross subsidise from their other franchises to make their premium payments?  Or will they manage to do it?

[woody]

I think we're moving away from the topic here, gents!

In the first year on the new franchise, a lot of changes were made by First (whether or not they were First's decision or not) and that made the service considerably worse, and the prices higher, for many of their customers.   It could be argued that the changes were not as bad as they could have been, but they were still worse overall.

Let's call that "x" steps backawards.   And in the second year, they have moved "y" steps back forward, but "y" is a much smaller number than "x".  On one hand, credit is due for those steps.  And on the other hand, I have a sneaky admiration for them in taking the maximum credit for the "y" steps and doing their level best to make us forget the "x".

Sorry to upset the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) supporters club here but I could not have put it better myself,the whole FGW saga to date is one of I step forward 2 steps back.Lets not forget where we are,both First and Network Rail are on final written warnings for their historically dreadful performance on FGW routes.Of course its not all their fault as Governments have not invested in FGW at anywhere near the required levels compared to other main lines.At least we are now moving in the right direction but its took a managing director to be moved sideways into the shadows and a franchise performance that was dragging Firsts wider reputation into the mire.
  Performance of late on FGW seems to have dramatically improved lets hope it continues but its sad we have had to endure FGWs dirty washing being done in public to get moving in the right direction.Make no mistake the FGW brand has been considerably tainted in the wider publics eyes

[vacman]

I think we're moving away from the topic here, gents!

In the first year on the new franchise, a lot of changes were made by First (whether or not they were First's decision or not) and that made the service considerably worse, and the prices higher, for many of their customers.   It could be argued that the changes were not as bad as they could have been, but they were still worse overall.

Let's call that "x" steps backawards.   And in the second year, they have moved "y" steps back forward, but "y" is a much smaller number than "x".  On one hand, credit is due for those steps.  And on the other hand, I have a sneaky admiration for them in taking the maximum credit for the "y" steps and doing their level best to make us forget the "x".

Sorry to upset the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) supporters club here but I could not have put it better myself,the whole FGW saga to date is one of I step forward 2 steps back.Lets not forget where we are,both First and Network Rail are on final written warnings for their historically dreadful performance on FGW routes.Of course its not all their fault as Governments have not invested in FGW at anywhere near the required levels compared to other main lines.At least we are now moving in the right direction but its took a managing director to be moved sideways into the shadows and a franchise performance that was dragging Firsts wider reputation into the mire.
  Performance of late on FGW seems to have dramatically improved lets hope it continues but its sad we have had to endure FGWs dirty washing being done in public to get moving in the right direction.Make no mistake the FGW brand has been considerably tainted in the wider publics eyes

Yes the last two years have been crap, but now things have improved, and personally, in my part of the world anyway, I think things are better than pre "04/06", yes they took two steps back but I think they now have gone three steps forward, and by this time next year if all goes to plan then there will be a far superior service in Cornwall and Devon to what Wessex provided.

[Conner]

I think we're moving away from the topic here, gents!

In the first year on the new franchise, a lot of changes were made by First (whether or not they were First's decision or not) and that made the service considerably worse, and the prices higher, for many of their customers.   It could be argued that the changes were not as bad as they could have been, but they were still worse overall.

Let's call that "x" steps backawards.   And in the second year, they have moved "y" steps back forward, but "y" is a much smaller number than "x".  On one hand, credit is due for those steps.  And on the other hand, I have a sneaky admiration for them in taking the maximum credit for the "y" steps and doing their level best to make us forget the "x".

Sorry to upset the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) supporters club here but I could not have put it better myself,the whole FGW saga to date is one of I step forward 2 steps back.Lets not forget where we are,both First and Network Rail are on final written warnings for their historically dreadful performance on FGW routes.Of course its not all their fault as Governments have not invested in FGW at anywhere near the required levels compared to other main lines.At least we are now moving in the right direction but its took a managing director to be moved sideways into the shadows and a franchise performance that was dragging Firsts wider reputation into the mire.
  Performance of late on FGW seems to have dramatically improved lets hope it continues but its sad we have had to endure FGWs dirty washing being done in public to get moving in the right direction.Make no mistake the FGW brand has been considerably tainted in the wider publics eyes

Yes the last two years have been crap, but now things have improved, and personally, in my part of the world anyway, I think things are better than pre "04/06", yes they took two steps back but I think they now have gone three steps forward, and by this time next year if all goes to plan then there will be a far superior service in Cornwall and Devon to what Wessex provided.

Well, they need to do alot to the timetable for that.
Destinations currently are much more limited as is stock allocation.

[smithy]

Was thinking about this this morning.

Taking a step back from the general chaos of the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) region, FGW actually plough a lot of money into the region, and also First Group as a whole. First Great Eastern built new 360 desiros and TPEx have 185s as a side thought. Last time I checked FGW had to pay a LOT of money back to some silly accountant at the government, and yet they still decide to spend millions on refurbishing stations, the whole HST^▸ (High Speed Train) fleet (along with the new vehicles they acquired) and as much as we hate them they aren't really too bad, the whole DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) fleet is being done up, more staff are being employed, trains are being strengthened. The list goes on. One thing is for sure, First Group doesn't mind splashing out a bit!

Wessex Trains on the other hand; They had a Subsidy for their franchise and managed to refurbish the 150s, already falling apart when about to go back to FGW, 153369, 153329 and 2 158s I believe. What were Wessex doing with all the money they were being given?

First didn't build anything, the leasing companies procure, own & refurbish rolling stock and lease it to FGW at increased cost.This increased cost is what they are currently "splashing out".  Once the initial subsidy stops and they have to pay money back what will happen?  Will they just hand back the keys and walk away?  Will they cross subsidise from their other franchises to make their premium payments?  Or will they manage to do it?

disagree with the part about lease companies refurbishing the stock,the rest is correct though

first changed the lease on the units so they pay less per month to the roscos,in return first foot the bill for all repairs,servicing,heavy maintainance and refurbishments.

[Lee]

first changed the lease on the units so they pay less per month to the roscos,in return first foot the bill for all repairs,servicing,heavy maintainance and refurbishments.

smithy, are First paying more, less or about the same as "market rate" to lease the ex-Arriva Class 150 units?

[vacman]

I think we're moving away from the topic here, gents!

In the first year on the new franchise, a lot of changes were made by First (whether or not they were First's decision or not) and that made the service considerably worse, and the prices higher, for many of their customers.   It could be argued that the changes were not as bad as they could have been, but they were still worse overall.

Let's call that "x" steps backawards.   And in the second year, they have moved "y" steps back forward, but "y" is a much smaller number than "x".  On one hand, credit is due for those steps.  And on the other hand, I have a sneaky admiration for them in taking the maximum credit for the "y" steps and doing their level best to make us forget the "x".

Sorry to upset the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) supporters club here but I could not have put it better myself,the whole FGW saga to date is one of I step forward 2 steps back.Lets not forget where we are,both First and Network Rail are on final written warnings for their historically dreadful performance on FGW routes.Of course its not all their fault as Governments have not invested in FGW at anywhere near the required levels compared to other main lines.At least we are now moving in the right direction but its took a managing director to be moved sideways into the shadows and a franchise performance that was dragging Firsts wider reputation into the mire.
  Performance of late on FGW seems to have dramatically improved lets hope it continues but its sad we have had to endure FGWs dirty washing being done in public to get moving in the right direction.Make no mistake the FGW brand has been considerably tainted in the wider publics eyes

Yes the last two years have been crap, but now things have improved, and personally, in my part of the world anyway, I think things are better than pre "04/06", yes they took two steps back but I think they now have gone three steps forward, and by this time next year if all goes to plan then there will be a far superior service in Cornwall and Devon to what Wessex provided.

Well, they need to do alot to the timetable for that.
Destinations currently are much more limited as is stock allocation.

Destinations are more limited because there are no pointless services like Penzance to Bristol TM^‡(resolve) stopping at every lamp post or Penzance to Milford Haven in 12 hours, instead we have more London trains (which people actually use), more connections at Plymouth from our stoppers, into XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) and London services. Anyone who thinks Wessex were perfect have got very short memories! 153 on the Newquay in Peak summer, 153 on Falmouth peak summer, and 153 Looe peak summer, that was POOR unit allocation! doesn't happen now!

[Conner]

I think we're moving away from the topic here, gents!

In the first year on the new franchise, a lot of changes were made by First (whether or not they were First's decision or not) and that made the service considerably worse, and the prices higher, for many of their customers.   It could be argued that the changes were not as bad as they could have been, but they were still worse overall.

Let's call that "x" steps backawards.   And in the second year, they have moved "y" steps back forward, but "y" is a much smaller number than "x".  On one hand, credit is due for those steps.  And on the other hand, I have a sneaky admiration for them in taking the maximum credit for the "y" steps and doing their level best to make us forget the "x".

Sorry to upset the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) supporters club here but I could not have put it better myself,the whole FGW saga to date is one of I step forward 2 steps back.Lets not forget where we are,both First and Network Rail are on final written warnings for their historically dreadful performance on FGW routes.Of course its not all their fault as Governments have not invested in FGW at anywhere near the required levels compared to other main lines.At least we are now moving in the right direction but its took a managing director to be moved sideways into the shadows and a franchise performance that was dragging Firsts wider reputation into the mire.
  Performance of late on FGW seems to have dramatically improved lets hope it continues but its sad we have had to endure FGWs dirty washing being done in public to get moving in the right direction.Make no mistake the FGW brand has been considerably tainted in the wider publics eyes

Yes the last two years have been crap, but now things have improved, and personally, in my part of the world anyway, I think things are better than pre "04/06", yes they took two steps back but I think they now have gone three steps forward, and by this time next year if all goes to plan then there will be a far superior service in Cornwall and Devon to what Wessex provided.

Well, they need to do alot to the timetable for that.
Destinations currently are much more limited as is stock allocation.

Destinations are more limited because there are no pointless services like Penzance to Bristol TM^‡(resolve) stopping at every lamp post or Penzance to Milford Haven in 12 hours, instead we have more London trains (which people actually use), more connections at Plymouth from our stoppers, into XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) and London services. Anyone who thinks Wessex were perfect have got very short memories! 153 on the Newquay in Peak summer, 153 on Falmouth peak summer, and 153 Looe peak summer, that was POOR unit allocation! doesn't happen now!

But Wessex didn't put 150's without luggage space for large cases on the connecting trains for XC and London. That is poor stock allocation.

[smithy]

first changed the lease on the units so they pay less per month to the roscos,in return first foot the bill for all repairs,servicing,heavy maintainance and refurbishments.

smithy, are First paying more, less or about the same as "market rate" to lease the ex-Arriva Class 150 units?

 if atw had any sense they would add a bit on for themselves as technically fgw are leasing direct from arriva,after all it is about supply and demand.fgw desperatly needed them but atw did not

[vacman]

I think we're moving away from the topic here, gents!

In the first year on the new franchise, a lot of changes were made by First (whether or not they were First's decision or not) and that made the service considerably worse, and the prices higher, for many of their customers.   It could be argued that the changes were not as bad as they could have been, but they were still worse overall.

Let's call that "x" steps backawards.   And in the second year, they have moved "y" steps back forward, but "y" is a much smaller number than "x".  On one hand, credit is due for those steps.  And on the other hand, I have a sneaky admiration for them in taking the maximum credit for the "y" steps and doing their level best to make us forget the "x".

Sorry to upset the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) supporters club here but I could not have put it better myself,the whole FGW saga to date is one of I step forward 2 steps back.Lets not forget where we are,both First and Network Rail are on final written warnings for their historically dreadful performance on FGW routes.Of course its not all their fault as Governments have not invested in FGW at anywhere near the required levels compared to other main lines.At least we are now moving in the right direction but its took a managing director to be moved sideways into the shadows and a franchise performance that was dragging Firsts wider reputation into the mire.
  Performance of late on FGW seems to have dramatically improved lets hope it continues but its sad we have had to endure FGWs dirty washing being done in public to get moving in the right direction.Make no mistake the FGW brand has been considerably tainted in the wider publics eyes

Yes the last two years have been crap, but now things have improved, and personally, in my part of the world anyway, I think things are better than pre "04/06", yes they took two steps back but I think they now have gone three steps forward, and by this time next year if all goes to plan then there will be a far superior service in Cornwall and Devon to what Wessex provided.

Well, they need to do alot to the timetable for that.
Destinations currently are much more limited as is stock allocation.

Destinations are more limited because there are no pointless services like Penzance to Bristol TM^‡(resolve) stopping at every lamp post or Penzance to Milford Haven in 12 hours, instead we have more London trains (which people actually use), more connections at Plymouth from our stoppers, into XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) and London services. Anyone who thinks Wessex were perfect have got very short memories! 153 on the Newquay in Peak summer, 153 on Falmouth peak summer, and 153 Looe peak summer, that was POOR unit allocation! doesn't happen now!

But Wessex didn't put 150's without luggage space for large cases on the connecting trains for XC and London. That is poor stock allocation.

Oh yes they did! So basicly what your saying is that the 158's on the Cardiff Portsmouths would be better allocated to the Penzance-Plymouth shuttles? 150's have plenty of overhead luggage space but passengers don't use it, I think that putting 3 car 158's on CDF^» (Cardiff - next trains)-PMH services (basicly an intercity route) is far better stock allocation!

[Conner]

The main connections to London trains continued to Bristol under Wessex and were 158's.
Overhead luggage space can't accomodate big cases.
3-car 158's is brilliant and much better stock aallocation but Wessex still managed to give us 158's when they made 3-car 158's for Portsmouth-Cardiff.

[Btline]

How can the connections to London trains continue to Bristol locally? Surely they would hold up the express?

[Conner]

10:30 ish off Penzance to Cardiff connected at Taunton.
12 ish off Penzance to Bristol connected at Newton Abott with about 15 mins to spare behind the Paignton HST^▸ (High Speed Train) which wasn't fast.

[Btline]

Right. Overall, I do think that 158s should be used rather than 150s, but it depends on the number of units available!

[John R]

Just a polite request - can you please just "reply" rather than "quote".