Money

[whole diary]

[devon_metro]

Was thinking about this this morning.

Taking a step back from the general chaos of the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) region, FGW actually plough a lot of money into the region, and also First Group as a whole. First Great Eastern built new 360 desiros and TPEx have 185s as a side thought. Last time I checked FGW had to pay a LOT of money back to some silly accountant at the government, and yet they still decide to spend millions on refurbishing stations, the whole HST^▸ (High Speed Train) fleet (along with the new vehicles they acquired) and as much as we hate them they aren't really too bad, the whole DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) fleet is being done up, more staff are being employed, trains are being strengthened. The list goes on. One thing is for sure, First Group doesn't mind splashing out a bit!

Wessex Trains on the other hand; They had a Subsidy for their franchise and managed to refurbish the 150s, already falling apart when about to go back to FGW, 153369, 153329 and 2 158s I believe. What were Wessex doing with all the money they were being given?

[Conner]

Do you have a personal vendetta against Wessex Trains. You certainly seem to.
FGW^▸ (First Great Western) have invested lots of money I agree but Wessex were better to the passengers which at the end of the day is the idea of a train company. They seemed more 'personal'.
Wessex Trains 150 refurbishment was pretty radical and a lot of the reason they are falling apart is because of Cardiff Canton. The main thing I noticed Canton did which is visible is take tables out of 150's. So many units are missing tables.

[oooooo]

Tables were removed as they were damaged, sharp edges etc, this is a H&S^▸ (Health and Safety) issue. It seems spares of this type of thing are non-exsistant. I was on a newly refreshed 153 today that had two arm rests snapped off (leaving sharp edges) and one of the pull down tables missing, they'll never be replaced as expect these items arent stocked as spares so expect the refreshed fleet to become shabby, quickly!! The only reason the ex Wessex fleet is a state is the ongoing poor maintenance.

[grahame]

Some thoughts - and I write these based on my own local knowledge / line. The comparisons in (d) through (g) are not quite so stark elsewhere, I understand.

a) The "125" operation, with fares at 50p + per mile in peak hours, covering 125 miles in an hour and one driver per 8 coaches is a very different economic case to a "143" operation with fares at 25p per mile, 75 miles in an hour and a 2 coach train.  I make the 125 financial "take" about 16 times that of the 143.
 
b) With a combined franchise, the payment to the government from the 125 operation will be lessened by the cost of running the West fleet - it's still going to be "lossmaking" according to FGW^▸ (First Great Western).  Just 4% of income is on the local trains in the West (Somerset, Dorset, Devon, Cornwall).

c) First is still receiving a subsidy; payments to the government haven't yet kicked in. With increasing rail passengers (35% per annum on TransWilts to 2006) any operator would move in the "less subsidy needed" direction.

d) Wessex provided six journeys on the TransWilts line between 8 a.m. and 6 p.m. whereas First provide none.

e) Cancellation rates on the TransWilts were about 2% under Wessex.  Under First in December and January they were over 7%.

f) Buy on the day (Monday to Friday) ticket price, adult return, no railcard, standard class now costs a minimum of 115 pounds as against 38 pound "supersavers" that I could buy 3 years ago for my local station.

g) Consultations which gave almost unanimous requests for the remaining train to arrive in Swindon later than proposed, and leave earlier than proposed, resulted in the OPPOSITE - the arrival was moved even earlier, and the departure even later.

h) There are a number of smart new signs at the local station, and the new staff uniforms look nice. The staff on the services remain helpful, friendly and professional.

[Conner]

Buy on the day tickets are for really silly people.
If you are going long distance you can't turn up and go for cheap prices.
It is like turning up at the airport without a ticket. Why can you expect to do it on the train?
Fares are cheaper, much cheaper.
CDR^▸ (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day'))'s are incredibilly cheap. For one person it is cheaper than petrol and parking.
Advance fares are much cheaper as well.

[swlines]

Buy on the day tickets are for really silly people.

Or business people.

If you are going long distance you can't turn up and go for cheap prices.

You can. You just have to know how to do it.

It is like turning up at the airport without a ticket. Why can you expect to do it on the train?

You can do it at the airport! I've gone to an airport a few times and got tickets to the north of England and Scotland.

Fares are cheaper, much cheaper.

What fares are?

CDR^▸ (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day'))'s are incredibilly cheap. For one person it is cheaper than petrol and parking.

A CDR is not cheaper on Bournemouth - London than petrol/parking if you get a decent parking spot!

Advance fares are much cheaper as well.

Agreed. :p

[willc]

CDR^▸ (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day'))'s are incredibilly cheap.

They may be in Devon and Cornwall, they aren't closer to London.

Moreton-in-Marsh to Oxford is ^9.80, for 28 miles each way (the under-promoted Cotswold Railcard - still not mentioned on FGW^▸ (First Great Western)'s website - brings that down to ^6.45). Our peak day return is a cool ^12.60.

Barnstaple to Exeter Central is ^7 (^4.65 with a D+C railcard, I guess) for a journey of about 40 miles each way.

And just try getting firstminute fares on the Cotswold Line.

Only recently, with the hike in petrol prices (and ignoring depreciation) has it been cheaper (using my railcard) for me to travel into Oxford by rail and while I get free parking at work, I choose to use the train as much as I can, because Oxford traffic is lousy much of the time.

Once you move into the nearby territory where London Midland sets the fares, then CDR prices are more on a par with what you get in the South West, eg there is a ^3.50 flat rate evening return fare set by LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) available for any journey in the area between Hereford and Moreton-in-Marsh. For more info on this, see http://www.clpg.co.uk/newsflatfarerev.htm/

[grahame]

Buy on the day tickets are for really silly people.
If you are going long distance you can't turn up and go for cheap prices.
Advance fares are much cheaper as well.

I had to look for some comparable benchmark, Conner, and there's such a variety of specials and all the rest "book ahead" that a comparison is hard - especially as there isn't a retrospective fare site ("what it would have cost in 2005")

So as a further comparison, today, 17th April, I have looked at the price of going from my local station in Melksham to London Paddington - around 100 milkes each way - on Tuesday 22nd April and Thursday 22nd May, and seeing what fares I could get.

For next Tuesday, I was offered a total fare (2 singles) of 104.50 on the 06:43, or 115.00 (2 singles, or an open return) on the 07:17.   For five weeks time, I was offered 61.50 on the 06:43, or 79.00 on the 07:17.  Yes, those fares for next month are a good saving on current buy-on-the-day fares, but they are still an inflation-busting ripoff compared to the 38.00 pound fare I could have bought on the same day in 2005.

I have NOT tried looking at "split fares", nor on journeys that involve using a bus for part of the way followed by a train, nor at the National Express coach, all of which may come in at less that the 60 pounds.  I'm not sure that it's reasonable to expect people to play games in booking, or to use a dramatically slower and less comfortable method of travel in making a "then" v "now" comparison.

[Conner]

Buy on the day tickets are for really silly people.

1.Or business people.

If you are going long distance you can't turn up and go for cheap prices.

2.You can. You just have to know how to do it.

It is like turning up at the airport without a ticket. Why can you expect to do it on the train?

3.You can do it at the airport! I've gone to an airport a few times and got tickets to the north of England and Scotland.

Fares are cheaper, much cheaper.

4.What fares are?

CDR^▸ (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day'))'s are incredibilly cheap. For one person it is cheaper than petrol and parking.

5.A CDR is not cheaper on Bournemouth - London than petrol/parking if you get a decent parking spot!

1. That is their descion they could get a season ticket.
2. Not many people do though.
3. In general you can't though.
4. I said that later.
5. That is priced by SWT^▸ (South West Trains).

[swlines]

1. How can you get a season ticket for a journey that you may only do once?
2. Depends on the journey.
3. In general you can, depends on the airline.
4. N/A
5. OK, compare for instance Basingstoke - London rte AP (priced by GW^▸ (Great Western)). I daresay it would be cheaper to travel by car on that one. Or perhaps Bedwyn - London rte AP.

[grahame]

I think we're moving away from the topic here, gents!

In the first year on the new franchise, a lot of changes were made by First (whether or not they were First's decision or not) and that made the service considerably worse, and the prices higher, for many of their customers.   It could be argued that the changes were not as bad as they could have been, but they were still worse overall.

Let's call that "x" steps backawards.   And in the second year, they have moved "y" steps back forward, but "y" is a much smaller number than "x".  On one hand, credit is due for those steps.  And on the other hand, I have a sneaky admiration for them in taking the maximum credit for the "y" steps and doing their level best to make us forget the "x".

[devon_metro]

Maybe I do have a personal vendetta conner, and I don't care how unpersonal FGW^▸ (First Great Western) are, I'm boarding their train, not having a relationship with them 

Besides I think 5 adults Paignton-Exeter Central return @^15 is a pretty personal gesture as that is cheap and saves ^10 over the normal fare.

Everybody on the train I was on was commenting on how cheap the tickets were, not how shabby the "bus" was 

[vacman]

Ummmmm business people can offset the fare against tax, hence the reason why so many First open returns are sold.
The conductors/drivers/station staff are the same people that were there under Wessex, the personal touch is down to individual staff members, Wessex wasted thousands on promotional crap like sweets, pens, mouse mats that was ultimately paid for by the tax payer, the sort of promotional crap that would never attract more people onto trains, yes, the 150 refurb was superb, but it was done as neccessity as the 150's were falling to bits. Wessex were supposed to have refurbed the 153's in 2004! it was put off and put off and never done, even though the funding was alegedly given to Wessex for this.

[Tim]

Ummmmm business people can offset the fare against tax,

The tax rules don't allow a complete offset of the fare, they merely mean that the fare costs the company or businessperson 20% or 40% less (depending on whether they are a basic or higher rate tax payer).   Ie if I earn ^60,000 but spend ^5,000 pa on business travel, I get taxed on ^55,000 rather than ^60,000.  ^5,000 of my money goes to teh train company in place of ^2,000 geoing to the taxman The revenue will only grant you tax relief on first class fares if you can demonstrate a business reason for needing to travel first class.

[smithy]

Was thinking about this this morning.

Taking a step back from the general chaos of the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) region, FGW actually plough a lot of money into the region, and also First Group as a whole. First Great Eastern built new 360 desiros and TPEx have 185s as a side thought. Last time I checked FGW had to pay a LOT of money back to some silly accountant at the government, and yet they still decide to spend millions on refurbishing stations, the whole HST^▸ (High Speed Train) fleet (along with the new vehicles they acquired) and as much as we hate them they aren't really too bad, the whole DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) fleet is being done up, more staff are being employed, trains are being strengthened. The list goes on. One thing is for sure, First Group doesn't mind splashing out a bit!

Wessex Trains on the other hand; They had a Subsidy for their franchise and managed to refurbish the 150s, already falling apart when about to go back to FGW, 153369, 153329 and 2 158s I believe. What were Wessex doing with all the money they were being given?

wessex refurbed 4 158's 747,748,749 &751 in that crappy pink interior.
the 150 refurb was badly needed at the time and a lot of money was spent and yes they are looking shabby but this i believe is down to poor maintainance,not just at canton but exeter aswell and of late phillips marsh (maybe the later because refresh is iminent?)
i agree first group do spend money but some of the problems will not go away by chucking money at it,and from the look of things andrew haines has realised this as some of the organisation is being restructered without splashing the cash.