Train GraphicClick on the map to explore geographics
 
I need help
FAQ
Emergency
About .
No recent travel & transport from BBC stories as at 15:35 10 Jan 2025
Read about the forum [here].
Register [here] - it's free.
What do I gain from registering? [here]
 14/01/25 - Rail Sale starts
24/01/25 - Westbury Station reopens
24/01/25 - LTP4 Wilts / Consultation end
24/01/25 - Bristol Rail Campaign AGM 2025

On this day
10th Jan (2017)
Defibrillators discussion pack published by Network Rail (link)

Train RunningCancelled
13:48 London Paddington to Carmarthen
14:35 London Paddington to Paignton
14:37 Didcot Parkway to London Paddington
14:54 Cardiff Central to London Paddington
15:00 Bristol Temple Meads to London Paddington
15:03 Oxford to London Paddington
15:16 London Paddington to Cardiff Central
15:30 London Paddington to Weston-Super-Mare
15:54 Cardiff Central to London Paddington
16:00 Oxford to London Paddington
16:23 London Paddington to Oxford
16:31 Barnstaple to Exeter St Davids
17:00 Oxford to London Paddington
17:50 Cardiff Central to London Paddington
Additional 18:10 Bristol Temple Meads to Gloucester
Short Run
13:26 Weston-Super-Mare to London Paddington
13:32 London Paddington to Cheltenham Spa
13:42 Exeter St Davids to London Paddington
13:50 Cardiff Central to London Paddington
14:03 London Paddington to Penzance
14:15 London Paddington to Cardiff Central
14:20 Carmarthen to London Paddington
14:30 London Paddington to Weston-Super-Mare
14:32 London Paddington to Cheltenham Spa
14:35 Barnstaple to Exeter Central
14:38 London Paddington to Didcot Parkway
14:53 London Paddington to Worcester Foregate Street
15:08 Didcot Parkway to London Paddington
15:08 London Paddington to Didcot Parkway
15:12 London Paddington to Newbury
15:14 Exeter Central to Barnstaple
15:28 Weston-Super-Mare to London Paddington
15:37 Didcot Parkway to London Paddington
15:38 London Paddington to Didcot Parkway
15:55 Newbury to London Paddington
16:05 London Paddington to Newbury
16:07 London Paddington to Didcot Parkway
16:34 Newbury to London Paddington
16:50 London Paddington to Didcot Parkway
17:05 London Paddington to Newbury
17:20 London Paddington to Didcot Parkway
Delayed
13:15 Plymouth to London Paddington
13:50 London Paddington to Great Malvern
13:55 Paignton to London Paddington
14:00 London Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads
14:14 Exeter Central to Barnstaple
15:03 London Paddington to Penzance
15:30 Bristol Temple Meads to London Paddington
15:35 Barnstaple to Exeter Central
15:59 Cheltenham Spa to London Paddington
16:50 Cardiff Central to London Paddington
etc
PollsThere are no open or recent polls
Abbreviation pageAcronymns and abbreviations
Stn ComparatorStation Comparator
Rail newsNews Now - live rail news feed
Site Style 1 2 3 4
Next departures • Bristol Temple MeadsBath SpaChippenhamSwindonDidcot ParkwayReadingLondon PaddingtonMelksham
Exeter St DavidsTauntonWestburyTrowbridgeBristol ParkwayCardiff CentralOxfordCheltenham SpaBirmingham New Street
January 10, 2025, 15:36:02 *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Forgotten your username or password? - get a reminder
Most recently liked subjects
[110] Ryanair sues 'unruly' passenger over flight diversion
[98] Mick Lynch announces retirement as head of RMT
[53] Thames Valley infrastructure problems causing disruption elsew...
[52] Westminster Hall debate : Railway services to South West
[46] Birthday trip, Melksham to Penzance - 28th January 2025
[25] A Beginner's Guide to the Great Western "Coffee Shop" Passenge...
 
News: the Great Western Coffee Shop ... keeping you up to date with travel around the South West
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: [1]
  Print  
Author Topic: Fares ... and how much should TOCs and RoSCos be receiving to support them?  (Read 2274 times)
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 43078



View Profile WWW Email
« on: November 10, 2020, 08:03:21 »

How much remuneration should the train operating companies (TOCs (Train Operating Company)) and rolling stock leasing companies (RoSCos) receive for their services during the current extraordinary times, and in particular should there be a slice, and if so, how much and on what terms, to provide incentives of profit for their shareholders and bonus for their directors?  Having taken on the commercial risks of a franchise or of owning trains that are not required (at present) in such a quantity as they have, should they have been allowed to fail, forced unwillingly to carry on at near-zero (perhaps loss in the short term) under their contracts, given a deal under which the cover costs plus keep their system (in which ahareholders are often pension funds paying - well - for your and my retirement), or be given a more generous deal in which the government provides for things as they were before Coronavirus, rather like some sort of insurance cover exepct that - to my knoweledge - no-one in the business was insured against the business effects of pandemic?

The question is a far from obvious one. A profit amount equivalent of (say) 2% on collected fares when the farebox income is 80% of the business income would become a profit level of 16% on collected fares if fares fell by a factor of 8 to just 10% of the (previous) business income, and such numbers lead to a new-look financial model in which all sorts of questions can be raised and accountancy games played, with varying degrees of merit.  For sure, the effect on income / operating costs on income of a fare rise next January will be far, far less this year than most - but then it "needs to happen" if the long term income stream policy is to ramp up the 80% farebox income to a higher percentage, reducing government subsidy in the process.

I was triggered to raise the question by a press release from the RMT (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers) yesterday where they reveal that "New research from RMT reveals that the private rail companies in Scotland set to make over GBP28 million in profit under Covid-19 Emergency Agreements, equivalent to up to a 7.4% fares cut".  I am not an accountant, so I'm not convinced of the validity of comparing the relative proportions of profit / management fees which are based on pre-Covid operating costs (as I undertsnad it) to the current farebox income which is an order of magnitude down on what it was this time last year.  The RMT are certainly correct in identifying (if indeed they did identify) that a significant / radical changes in fare income at the present time would have far, far less of an effect on the industry's overall financial position and so carry a far lower risk to actually change under EMA, ERMA, or ETC into the future than it would have had if implemented in January 2018 (when it was needed), January 2019 (when it should have been done) or even January 2020 (by which time it felt long overdue).
Logged

Coffee Shop Admin, Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, TravelWatch SouthWest Board Member
ChrisB
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 13033


View Profile Email
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2020, 14:08:08 »

I read yesterday - unsure if it's correct, mind - that XC (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) are on a 0.5% payment for running their direct award - most other operators are now on 1.5% (down from 2%)

That's a minimal return in my view and only by making trains operate under last resort ter,s might any money be further saved.
Logged
Robin Summerhill
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 1145


View Profile Email
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2020, 20:39:05 »



I was triggered to raise the question by a press release from the RMT (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers) yesterday where they reveal that "New research from RMT reveals that the private rail companies in Scotland set to make over GBP28 million in profit under Covid-19 Emergency Agreements, equivalent to up to a 7.4% fares cut".  I am not an accountant, so I'm not convinced of the validity of comparing the relative proportions of profit / management fees which are based on pre-Covid operating costs (as I undertsnad it) to the current farebox income which is an order of magnitude down on what it was this time last year.  The RMT are certainly correct in identifying (if indeed they did identify) that a significant / radical changes in fare income at the present time would have far, far less of an effect on the industry's overall financial position and so carry a far lower risk to actually change under EMA, ERMA, or ETC into the future than it would have had if implemented in January 2018 (when it was needed), January 2019 (when it should have been done) or even January 2020 (by which time it felt long overdue).

Quite. I am not known for union bashing like some on this forum and elsewhere, but anything the RMT puts out (or TOC (Train Operating Company) management for that matter) needs taking with a very large pinch of salt.

I have not seen the accounts (and Im not really interested enough to look it up) but a more balanced view would be to show how that 28m figure is made up and what it represents. Is it a gross figure from which expenses (which may be substantial if they include such things as track access charges etc) would be deducted, or is a net figure? If it is a net figure, what percentage of normal turnover would it represent? On its own the figure is meaningless.

To link it to fares in the way it does is disingenuous at best So it is equivalent to up to a 7.4% fares cut is it? In that case, so would reducing Scotrails wage bill by the same amount, but I cant see the RMT shouting that from the rooftops in a press release...
Logged
Do you have something you would like to add to this thread, or would you like to raise a new question at the Coffee Shop? Please [register] (it is free) if you have not done so before, or login (at the top of this page) if you already have an account - we would love to read what you have to say!

You can find out more about how this forum works [here] - that will link you to a copy of the forum agreement that you can read before you join, and tell you very much more about how we operate. We are an independent forum, provided and run by customers of Great Western Railway, for customers of Great Western Railway and we welcome railway professionals as members too, in either a personal or official capacity. Views expressed in posts are not necessarily the views of the operators of the forum.

As well as posting messages onto existing threads, and starting new subjects, members can communicate with each other through personal messages if they wish. And once members have made a certain number of posts, they will automatically be admitted to the "frequent posters club", where subjects not-for-public-domain are discussed; anything from the occasional rant to meetups we may be having ...

 
Pages: [1]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.2 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
This forum is provided by customers of Great Western Railway (formerly First Great Western), and the views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that the content provided by one of our posters contravenes our posting rules (email link to report). Forum hosted by Well House Consultants

Jump to top of pageJump to Forum Home Page