Improving transport infrastructure - inc. Scotland to Northern Ireland tunnel

[whole diary]

[stuving]

Has anyone worked out that 4' 81/2" 5' 3" doesn't go. I suppose you could have an automatic gauge change at Larne.

Given how long it's likely to take, that may not be an issue. If the railways each side are hyperloops, for example ... after all, your man Elon is always up for a challenge.

Plan A would employ some SpaceX technology to get across the gap; call that the brute force method. Plan B has a bit more elegance, and uses a special aerodynamic capsule that pops out of its tunnel one one side and "lands" in a funnel on the other.

[Robin Summerhill]

Surely HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) could simply be extended to Belfast?

How anyone could imagine HS2 could be "simply" extended to Belfast is beyond me.

How anyone could imagine I was being serious is beyond me 🙂

I get that problem all the time... 

Lets see what response I get to the next post...

[Robin Summerhill]

Has anyone worked out that 4' 81/2" 5' 3" doesn't go. I suppose you could have an automatic gauge change at Larne.

Simples. Dual gauge to the England/ Scotland border so when Scotland leaves the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) and rejoins the EU^» (European Union - about) it will be Carlisles problem

[Phil]

Surely HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) could simply be extended to Belfast?

How anyone could imagine HS2 could be "simply" extended to Belfast is beyond me.

How anyone could imagine I was being serious is beyond me 🙂

I was quoting your own quote back at you. The entire exchange is utterly beyond me, as well.

[Phil]

Surely HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) could simply be extended to Belfast?

How anyone could imagine HS2 could be "simply" extended to Belfast is beyond me.

It's simple in cynical fantasy, Phil  ... I hope I read that right, and I suspect you read it that way too 

No, actually I didn't. I read it as an opportunity to ridicule someone in a similar way to that which they attempted to ridicule me by intentionally misinterpreting something that I wrote 24 hours previously.

[grahame]

From The Scotsman

Edinburgh experts draw-up plan for floating 'tube bridge' linking Scotland and Northern Ireland

Prime Minister Boris Johnson has repeatedly given enthusiastic support to ambitious proposals for a 20-mile bridge between Portpatrick in Wigtownshire, and Larne, north of Belfast. The crossing could cost ?15 billion according to initial estimates

However, a team from Heriot-Watt University in Edinburgh have now proposed a less costly scheme involving the creation of a submerged floating tube bridge (SFTB). Their vision would require less structural engineering work because instead of pillars it would be anchored to the sea bed and tethered to pontoons on the surface.

The tube through which traffic could pass would be 50m (164ft) below the surface. Cars could drive through or park on a high-speed shuttle train, which the designers say would be safer. It is also estimated the SFTB would cut the current ferry passage from Cairnryan Port to Northern Ireland from two-and-a-half-hours to 40 minutes.

"From an engineering perspective, an SFTB as a concept is very exciting," said Eoin MacDonald, who is working on the project proposal. "It has the potential to transform how long-distance sea crossings are tackled."

[CyclingSid]

What lurks beneath:
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/stena-superfast-vii-and-royal-navy-submarine-report-published

[broadgage]

All this talk of tunnels and bridges ... I wonder if there is an intermediate option that could be considered, with something on the surface of the water?    It wouldn't even need to be continuous - they could batch up people wanting to go across (just as they do in a train anyway) and then dispatch those batches to a timetable, with some sort of engine on the batch container.  Might even offer a buffet or restaurant service?  Perhaps too novel to consider?

An entertaining thought, but it would never work in practice.
If the engine failed, the batch container would drift helplessly, until dashed against rocks, or ending up in the wrong country.
With no rigid supporting structure, the containers would pitch around in rough weather, and those onboard suffer from motion sickness, or broken limbs when thrown around.
If a defect in the structure occurred, the water would get in, the container would sink beneath the water, and those onboard drown in the usual way. Who would chance that.
How could any but the most basic catering be provided ? Cooking hot food on a train is a bit of a challenge, but has been achieved, with excellent results. But on one of these floating (hopefully) containers, that may tilt in any direction without warning ! Food and drink would be dashed to the floor, staff thrown against hot stoves, impaled on kitchen knives, or suffer other accidents too horrible to contemplate.

The idea is too fanciful for serious consideration.

[stuving]

From The Scotsman

...
"From an engineering perspective, an SFTB as a concept is very exciting," said Eoin MacDonald, who is working on the project proposal. "It has the potential to transform how long-distance sea crossings are tackled."

That deserves a bit of periphrasis: "Me and my mates were in a bar last week, and one of us remembered reading about this idea - sounds fun, doesn't it? At least, it ought to grab a headline or two."

This idea has been around for ages - those Victorian engineers were full of bright ideas - but no-one has ever built one. Not even a little one. Simpler structures are used for submarine engineering tasks, mostly in offshore oil, such as installing pipelines, but those are temporary.

So please, kids, can we start with just a baby one, say a few hundred metres, and see how it goes in real life?

Trying to take it as seriously as possible, I was surprised to see mention of floating supports. I thought the idea was to make the tunnel buoyant, and if it needs extra upforce to add it close to the tunnel. The last thing you want is stuff up on the surface, where the sea leaps around a lot, winds blow things about, and there are big dangerous things like ships.

[ellendune]

From The Scotsman

...
"From an engineering perspective, an SFTB as a concept is very exciting," said Eoin MacDonald, who is working on the project proposal. "It has the potential to transform how long-distance sea crossings are tackled."

Trying to take it as seriously as possible, I was surprised to see mention of floating supports. I thought the idea was to make the tunnel buoyant, and if it needs extra upforce to add it close to the tunnel. The last thing you want is stuff up on the surface, where the sea leaps around a lot, winds blow things about, and there are big dangerous things like ships.

Yes, trying to take this seriously, but as an engineer, the more I think about an underwater bridge with a span that is several miles long, subject to strong tidal currents the more crackpot it seems.  The lateral loads would be immense, even before you have allowed for impact from a submarine! The add in the unnecessary floats and you have added a huge uplift that would oscillate in rough weather - sheer madness. 

[grahame]

Dated 1890 ... source unknown, but must be out of copyright ... proof there's no such thing as a "new idea"

[grahame]

From the Belfast Telegraph.   Has this been posted a month early?

Boris Johnson's Irish Sea tunnels and roundabout have sunk serious plans for bridge claims professor

Boris Johnson's plan to build three tunnels under the Irish Sea, with a roundabout underneath the Isle of Man, has put an end to any serious discussion about a road or rail crossing to Northern Ireland, according to one of the UK^▸ (United Kingdom)'s leading architects.

Professor Alan Dunlop, who drew up an earlier plan to construct a bridge from Scotland to Northern Ireland, has rubbished the Prime Minister's latest idea for a link.

And the SDLP's Infrastructure Minister Nichola Mallon has written to the PM urging him to ditch the idea altogether.

[Clan Line]

Boris Johnson's plan to build three tunnels under the Irish Sea, with a roundabout underneath the Isle of Man,

Boris must have been to Tromso in Norway, there are a lot of tunnels under the city - including a large roundabout !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ceo3dBITv5E

[Oxonhutch]

There is an undersea one in the Faroe Islands. Deepest roundabout in the world I believe.

[grahame]

There is an undersea one in the Faroe Islands. Deepest roundabout in the world I believe.

That's exactly the same picture that's used in the Belfast Telegraph Article.  And here I was thinking that road sign was in Manx!