Padding overkill

[whole diary]

[Btline]

What do you realistically expect them to do???

Its not as if Notwork Derail is jumping at the chance to improve the line!!

If FGW^▸ (First Great Western) had no slack then there would be less money to waste on under utilised services on the Cotswolds Line. Use the damn service and show that people appreciate it or i'm sure FGW will just stuff the line!

Some of us do use the line - every day! Short of spending my entire day sitting on a train I can't do more!

The peaks are well utilised - off peak is a different issue.  If they ran a proper peak commuter express they even could get more usage.

All this padding puts commuters off! If it takes too damn long they just won't use it!

Most people think I am deranged or a masochist!

Run peak express services with a decent connection at oxf for a stopper. Run shuttles but only during the day or against peak flow,

0545/0634/0734 - are busy hst
1721/1751/1821 - are bust hst

The rest are not - make trains at roughly these times be semi fast express and put more shuttle stoppers elsewhere

Excellent idea. Run expresses with a stopper leaving Oxford 10 mins after the express has gone. And vice versa.

I don't care if some Cotswolds villages people will have to change. The journey time is far too long for longer distance commuters!

I still think more expresses during the day would get people onto the line....

[willc]

THw worst part of this is, how much of a delay this did train cause elsewhere?

Not much, no more than the 17.21 often does with a healthy train, like it seems to have done yet again tonight, with the 17.50 and 18.50 from Worcester five and 10 minutes late and the 17.51 from London 10 down by Moreton.

And full marks to the train crew and control for coming up with a solution to keep the train running. They could quite easily have terminated it at Moreton and turfed everyone off to wait for the 17.51.

Its not as if Notwork Derail is jumping at the chance to improve the line!!

Let me assure you, having heard Dave Ward (Network Rail western route director) speak at Charlbury last month, that if the decision to commit the money for more double track was his, or the NR^» (Network Rail - home page) board's, the work would be under way as soon as possible. They are fully behind the proposals they have submitted to the Office for Rail Regulation - it would be pretty daft not to be after they have spent lots of money on study work over the past year.

If FGW^▸ (First Great Western) had no slack then there would be less money to waste on under utilised services on the Cotswolds Line. Use the damn service and show that people appreciate it or i'm sure FGW will just stuff the line!

Remember it was FGW's decision to go for a near all-HST^▸ (High Speed Train) service, all day. As many of us have pointed out previously, an Adelante, or something similar in terms of capacity and passenger environment, is the ideal train for the Cotswold Line off-peak, or on services running against the peak flows.

We do appreciate the service we have, but frankly any local marketing effort to try to attract non-rail users to fill more seats on trains off-peak - and promote the Cotswold Line Railcard as well - is pretty much non-existent and that ball is in FGW's court.

Oh, and they won't 'stuff' the line - they make too much money from it. Quite apart from fares revenue, several of the station car parks are big earners - tens of thousands of pounds each every year. With less than fantastic road links and congestion, we are pretty much a captive market for FGW.

Excellent idea. Run expresses with a stopper leaving Oxford 10 mins after the express has gone. And vice versa.

I don't care if some Cotswolds villages people will have to change

Not this old chestnut again. What villages? Hanborough, okay a village, but the nearest station to Witney, Woodstock and Kidlington; Charlbury, busiest intermediate station on the line after Evesham; Kingham, a village but its station serves a wide area, including Chipping Norton, so busy; Moreton-in-Marsh; a very small town, but acts as railhead for a large part of north-east Gloucestershire and south Warwickshire, so very busy; Evesham, need I say more; Pershore; station is badly sited, but again serves a wide area. Which leaves the halts; plus Shipton, poorly served and could do with more trains; Honeybourne, better served, perhaps over-generously at times.

So, take out a few calls at Honeybourne and Pershore and you'd save about five minutes on a journey to Worcester!

By all means attack the slack, but even if there is more double track, virtually every train will continue to call at all the points listed, because they generate far more money for FGW, from far more passengers, day in, day out, than Worcester or Hereford ever will, even if there were faster trains.

[IanL]

Completely agree with Willc.

And where are these empty daytime services, in recent weeks I have had to travel into Oxford and Paddington much later than usual, still in the morning but often just before lunch. When a 3-car turbo is scheduled it has always been packed, when an HST^▸ (High Speed Train) has provided the service I estimate approx 1/3 to 1/2 full.....which is a lot for an Adelante or Turbo (they both have similar capacities) to carry in comfort.

The current schedule still has 2 hour gaps in very inconvenient places....try getting back from Oxford to Charlbury for 3pm for the schools...you have to leave before 1pm!

Getting better but still could do better.

[Mookiemoo]

Completely agree with Willc.

And where are these empty daytime services, in recent weeks I have had to travel into Oxford and Paddington much later than usual, still in the morning but often just before lunch. When a 3-car turbo is scheduled it has always been packed, when an HST^▸ (High Speed Train) has provided the service I estimate approx 1/3 to 1/2 full.....which is a lot for an Adelante or Turbo (they both have similar capacities) to carry in comfort.

The current schedule still has 2 hour gaps in very inconvenient places....try getting back from Oxford to Charlbury for 3pm for the schools...you have to leave before 1pm!

Getting better but still could do better.

I sort of experience similar

If I dont want to travel in the peak I have to get the 1423 or the 1623 from Reading.......

BUT how many actually HAVE to travel at these times?

People who travel in the peak usually have no choice.  (note: I have no sympathy for the school run - people choose to have children as a life style choice its their problem to deal with since no one made them have offspring - and when I was a lass we were in school doing SPORT until 430pm at the earliest)

I'm not saying the villages should have NO service - just that they should have a well timed stopper connection

[Conner]

They couldn't of turfed everyone on to the 17:51 today.
FGW^▸ (First Great Western) live updates had it is an Adelante.

[Mookiemoo]

They couldn't of turfed everyone on to the 17:51 today.
FGW^▸ (First Great Western) live updates had it is an Adelante.

Twas

I was on it

It was heaving (hence my post on the main forum about one way in which adelantes are better than refurb HST^▸ (High Speed Train)!)

Also - the aircon unit in D was sick - the compressor was sucking all the way!)

And since it was a late replacement there was nothing in the shop - and bugger all in first class!

[Mookiemoo]

Completely agree with Willc.

And where are these empty daytime services, in recent weeks I have had to travel into Oxford and Paddington much later than usual, still in the morning but often just before lunch. When a 3-car turbo is scheduled it has always been packed, when an HST^▸ (High Speed Train) has provided the service I estimate approx 1/3 to 1/2 full.....which is a lot for an Adelante or Turbo (they both have similar capacities) to carry in comfort.

The current schedule still has 2 hour gaps in very inconvenient places....try getting back from Oxford to Charlbury for 3pm for the schools...you have to leave before 1pm!

Getting better but still could do better.

Maybe there is a compromise

The 0545 WOS^» (Worcester Shrub Hill - next trains) - PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) which is a HST stopper run as it is

The 0632 is useless for anyone who has to be in London for 9am

The 0732 is for those who work in reading or have flexibility

Why not scrap the first down train (what really is the passenger numbers on that PAD-WOS train that then forms the 0841?) - whenever I see it I see a ghost train.  Give priority to the up train of a morning - source the unit for the 0841 elsewhere.
And make the 0632 a true express getting into london at about 0830 which is what it did 4 years ago!

They are trying to cater to two markets at the moment and not satisfying any!

[Steve44]

the 5.45 service picks up a LOT of school children from kingham/evesham/pershore area, but in all fairness the times i've been on it, it's been a turbo (my luck!) and it's been crammed then, i'm guessing if it's a HST^▸ (High Speed Train) normally it's probably not as bad but it's still a well used service.

[willc]

They couldn't of turfed everyone on to the 17:51 today.
FGW^▸ (First Great Western) live updates had it is an Adelante.

Certainly could, it rarely has more than two or three dozen people on board past Moreton-in-Marsh. And it is only ever "heaving" as far as Oxford, whether an Adelante or an HST^▸ (High Speed Train).

The 05.42 from London is obviously run mainly as a way to get a train out to Worcester to form the 08.37 back to London, BUT it forms a useful early fast Reading-Oxford train, has a few loyal regulars from Moreton-in-Marsh and, as Steve says, loads well from Evesham and Pershore into Oxford, with schoolchildren, college students and people going to work in Worcester. And there aren't so many HSTs around that they can leave one sitting doing nothing at Worcester all through the morning peak, or running up empty from Bristol in among a stream of fully-loaded CrossCountry commuter trains bound for Birmingham.

And any 'express'  - which will never happen as any skipping of stations in west Oxfordshire would see a certain Mr Cameron raising merry hell - would of course be brought straight back down to a sedate pace past Didcot to fit in with everything else fighting for track space at that time of the day. Until Reading is rebuilt, nothing will change, as it is the key cause of padding in the entire FGW timetable.

just that they should have a well timed stopper connection

But as I pointed out earlier, we 'villagers' are the ones who actually pay the bills and provide the profit on the Cotswold Line, not a handful of hardy commuters from Worcester.

Also, passengers hate changing trains and operators know this. Which is why Cotswold Line passenger numbers sky-rocketed in 1993 when the Turbo timetable was launched. Which is why FGW is running through trains to Newquay all summer. Which is why Hull Trains has been a success, as people don't have to change at Doncaster. Which is what Wrexham & Shropshire are banking on, even though their through journey times to and from London are rather longer than changing in and out of Virgin services at Birmingham or Chester.

It's a good job you weren't using the route pre-1993 Mookiemoo, as you would have been changing trains at Oxford rather a lot - with no first class on 150s and 155s, never mind no complimentary refreshments.

[Btline]

A better idea. Run a double 180 as far as Oxford. Then split it:

*front half runs fast to Worcester, all stops to Hereford
*second one stops at all stops to Worcester

And I disagree - I think passenger numbers would boom if the journey time came down.

[willc]

a. 180s are history in these parts. They will all have new operators by the start of next year, judging by the interest being shown.
b. If you split trains, someone will always be in the wrong part, so hello instant delays as they (slowly) sort themselves out when the train divides.
c. You can't have a train sitting in a platform at Oxford for 15 minutes. There are too many other trains and not enough platforms. Even if you were to park in the goods loop north of the station to wait for a path, as a journalist, I - never mind the nationals - would have a field day with trains being operated like this - 'sorry you've missed your train, that's it just up there at the sidings, you can sit and look at it for 15 minutes until it leaves'...
d. Imposing this kind of nonsense on passengers heading to London and living within driving distance of the Chiltern line would have a simple effect - they would all drive to Bicester instead - net result, a FALL in Cotswold Line passenger numbers
e. To pay to run trains like this would need 200 passengers going to Worcester and beyond on every train - they don't exist and wouldn't even if the trains were faster. Do a headcount on the 17.21, 17.51 and 18.21 ex-London beyond Moreton-in-Marsh pretty much any day of the week if you don't believe me.

[Mookiemoo]

a. 180s are history in these parts. They will all have new operators by the start of next year, judging by the interest being shown.
b. If you split trains, someone will always be in the wrong part, so hello instant delays as they (slowly) sort themselves out when the train divides.
c. You can't have a train sitting in a platform at Oxford for 15 minutes. There are too many other trains and not enough platforms. Even if you were to park in the goods loop north of the station to wait for a path, as a journalist, I - never mind the nationals - would have a field day with trains being operated like this - 'sorry you've missed your train, that's it just up there at the sidings, you can sit and look at it for 15 minutes until it leaves'...
d. Imposing this kind of nonsense on passengers heading to London and living within driving distance of the Chiltern line would have a simple effect - they would all drive to Bicester instead - net result, a FALL in Cotswold Line passenger numbers
e. To pay to run trains like this would need 200 passengers going to Worcester and beyond on every train - they don't exist and wouldn't even if the trains were faster. Do a headcount on the 17.21, 17.51 and 18.21 ex-London beyond Moreton-in-Marsh pretty much any day of the week if you don't believe me.

2 years ago the head count was much larger - then the timetabled journey was 1 hour 50 minutes ish

Now it is 2 hours 20 and the only train with even a chance of making it to London for a 9 am start leaves in the middle of the night

FGW^▸ (First Great Western) new timetable cost me my last client.  Up to December they could cope with me arriving circa 0915 every morning.  December/Jan/Feb - I was arriving anywhere between 0800 and 1130 depending on the issues. Before then I had commuted daily into london for three years (in six month stretches) with no issue - yes, even back on the 1 hr 50 timetable - the morning train usually arrived on time at 0830ish - it was the evening that was screwed.  On being given a "be in the office by 0830 at least three mornings a week or else" - I had no choice but to look for a new client.  I could not guarantee it.  Funnily enough just as I changed, the service improved but by then it was too late.

Just out of people I have spoke to I KNOW if people who have changed jobs, moved to chiltern etc because of the piss poor FGW cotswolds service - The ONLY reason the villages can still  provide the amount of service they do is that in general they are well heeled and can, within reason, set their own time table (Something I can also do).  It is no consolation to the Charlbury commuter who has to be in London for 9am if the train doesnt arrive until 0850 and they have to get across town.

Of course, the compromise agreement I suggested could work.  The 0545 is too early for most WOS^» (Worcester Shrub Hill - next trains)/Malvern residents to use daily - but by the time it gets south of Moreton it is coming into civilised.

Why not, run the 0545 and the 0734 as stoppers as they do now - but run the 0634 semi fast?  And have it arrive at 0830.  Stop it at evesham, moreton, Kingham, Charlbury, Oxford, PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) - Reading has more than sufficient fast to London (it always amuses me at people trying to jump onto a departing train running fast to PAD when the next one is only five minutes later - FFS^▸ (for goodness' sake (a more polite definition)) if five minutes is THAT important you have problems).

If the journey time gets much longer, I will start staying in a hotel during the week - and thats only to Reading.  The HST^▸ (High Speed Train) enabled routes such as Cardiff and Worcester to be commuter routes to London - FGW are reversing that at a rate of knots.

[willc]

The ONLY reason the villages can still  provide the amount of service they do is that in general they are well heeled and can, within reason, set their own time table

Well, I don't know how much you think I earn, but well-heeled I and many others using the Cotswold Line ain't.

Everything now stops at Reading because ever-increasing numbers of people - yourself included - work there, plus it offers connections, avoiding London, to an awful lot of destinations.

And don't forget, your daily journey is very much the exception and was even before the padding. The following points are from an RAC Foundation study last autumn:

The average daily commute is 8.7 miles a 6% increase since 1995/97.
The average commuter travels for 54 minutes a day.
One in ten commuters have a daily journey in excess of 2 hours.
3% of UK^▸ (United Kingdom) workers are 'extreme commuters', travelling at least 3 hours everyday.
People working in London have average daily commutes of 86 minutes, almost double the commuting times of other regions.

Even with a one hour 20 minute express timing between Moreton and London, anyone doing that journey daily effectively counted as extreme. Worcester and back, plus your drive beyond, must put you way off the scale. My family used to live in South Shropshire, so I do know just how far from London that neck of the woods is - a very long way!

Yes, there is some shocking padding in the Cotswold Line timetable - I did start this thread to highlight that - but that goes for a lot of FGW^▸ (First Great Western)'s other services and other rail companies as well. Unless and until the infrastructure (Cotswold Line, Oxford-Didcot, Reading) is sorted out, we're stuck with it. While in nearly seven years of commuting I have never known a period as bad as last December and January, there were some pretty rough times under Thames Trains as well.

Any rail/bus/airline timetable is a compromise and the needs of tiny minorities (eg regular commuters to London from west of Moreton-in-Marsh) are always going to play second fiddle to those of the majority (eg Oxford commuters, who got an extra Adelante service all of their very own, with the train pinched from the first Malvern service, within weeks of the start of the ill-fated December 2006 timetable.

[Mookiemoo]

Everything now stops at Reading because ever-increasing numbers of people - yourself included - work there, plus it offers connections, avoiding London, to an awful lot of destinations.

[\quote]

Yes I do at the moment but I could understand why I couldnt use EVERY london bound service to stop there.  I was working in uxbridge 12 months ago and whilst it would have been nice to have everything stop at Slough I understood I had to get of at Reading and change.  Annoying but with reading being a bigger centre - if only 1/5 trains missed it out - I dont think it would make that much difference to reading folks or the people going there.

Worcester and back, plus your drive beyond, must put you way off the scale. My family used to live in South Shropshire, so I do know just how far from London that neck of the woods is - a very long way!

[\quote]

True - but there are increasing numbers of WOS^» (Worcester Shrub Hill - next trains) - OXF^» (Oxford - next trains) and Hereford -OXF passengers getting irritated by the padding (which is all north of oxford).

I know it seems silly but actually south shropshire is quite well connected if (1) you hate driving unless you have to (2) you have something to occupy yourself on the train (3) you have some degree of working flexibility.

Living in the triangulation of three stations I have:

Ludlow
- daily commute to liverpool/manchester
- daily commute to south wales/bristol/north south west

Kidderminster
- daily commute to birmingham
- Change at birmingham for daily commutes to nottingham/sheffield/derby
- Change at birmingham for Milton Keynes/North east and east london

Worcester
- daily commutes to West London/Thames Valley
- Cotswolds

And taking out dailies - I can do 'get home at least once a week" commutes from much further flung places

I've priced all options - unless you want to spend mon- thur in a flea pit rent by the hour motel it is STILL cheaper to get a weekly first season ticket and commute than to stay over

And since my working location changes every 6 months or so (its mere coincidence I was in uxbridge then putney then reading - oh to have had 20/20 forsight and got an annual ticket!) it is the most practical option

HOWEVER - if I didnt have something to do that I enjoyed on the train I wouldnt bother

Yes, there is some shocking padding in the Cotswold Line timetable - I did start this thread to highlight that - but that goes for a lot of FGW^▸ (First Great Western)'s other services and other rail companies as well. Unless and until the infrastructure (Cotswold Line, Oxford-Didcot, Reading) is sorted out, we're stuck with it. While in nearly seven years of commuting I have never known a period as bad as last December and January, there were some pretty rough times under Thames Trains as well.

Any rail/bus/airline timetable is a compromise and the needs of tiny minorities (eg regular commuters to London from west of Moreton-in-Marsh) are always going to play second fiddle to those of the majority (eg Oxford commuters, who got an extra Adelante service all of their very own, with the train pinched from the first Malvern service, within weeks of the start of the ill-fated December 2006 timetable.

[stebbo]

For those of us living in Hereford and having to go to London on business (say) twice or three times a month, the early morning/evening "expresses" are now a pain. Back in the 1990s the Cathedrals Express was pretty pleasant, normally on time or thereabouts and fairly quick.

Now, as I've said in other messages on this site, the service is a pain. Takes longer and is less reliable. Yet again, the service late to London because of, guess what, hold-ups at Evesham and Moreton in Marsh.

No wonder I now drive to Swindon and get the train. I know of others from around Ledbury/Gloucestershire way who drive to Hillingdon and get the Met.

B****y ridiculous.