Exeter Airport - Sat 04/07 Resumption Of Commercial Flights (COVID-19)

[whole diary]

[ellendune]

Make have a real look at aviation and what they are doing to improve things. Not just because of peer pressure from Green Peace. But because using fuel = money, using less fuel means saving money which means greater profit. Especially now that Covid has taken out most of the oldest and least fuel efficient aircraft. By the times things improve most fleets will modern and very environmentally friendly. A350, 787 etc.

This idiotic idea that aircraft are 'gas guzzlers' is so far from the truth, if it were true most airline would have gone backrupt 10 years ago!

So how do you explain these figures



from https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-49349566

Edit to scale down the rather larger image (as was) - Grahame

[grahame]

Spotting words like "silly" and "idiotic" up-thread.   Please be careful - they may not be written with the intent of being personal insults but almost inevitably some element of belittling the poster you're commenting on can be read into the post.

[southwest]

Make have a real look at aviation and what they are doing to improve things. Not just because of peer pressure from Green Peace. But because using fuel = money, using less fuel means saving money which means greater profit. Especially now that Covid has taken out most of the oldest and least fuel efficient aircraft. By the times things improve most fleets will modern and very environmentally friendly. A350, 787 etc.

This idiotic idea that aircraft are 'gas guzzlers' is so far from the truth, if it were true most airline would have gone backrupt 10 years ago!

So how do you explain these figures



from https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-49349566

Edit to scale down the rather larger image (as was) - Grahame

That's not really relevant to my point though is it?

The last time I looked there was no rail line between London and Sydney, and lets be fair there will never be one! Nor will there be one to New York. The only way to get there is to fly. On that note flying is become more efficient and trying to be sustainable.

In regard to that graph it doesn't mean anything, here's why: 

In regards to a train, it doesn't tell you what type was used to collect data, I.e electric, modern DEMU^▸ (Diesel Electric Multiple Unit) or an old High Speed Train (HST^▸ (High Speed Train)).

In the same regard it doesn't say what aircraft we're used to collect data, a 747 will have a higher fuel burn than a modern 787. A 737 flying a domestic route would have a higher fuel burn than a Dash 8-400 or ATR. Maybe you should look at studying modern turbofan engines, as you would realise the majority of the power(thrust) doesn't even come from the engine itself.

There is also projects like https://www.airbus.com/innovation/zero-emission/electric-flight/e-fan-x.html for example, looking to bring electric engines into use. This takes time as there is significant more red tape than most industries, and quite rightly so!

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying abbreviation

[grahame]

In regard to that graph it doesn't mean anything, here's why: 

In regards to a train, it doesn't tell you what type was used to collect data, I.e electric, modern DEMU^▸ (Diesel Electric Multiple Unit) or an old HST^▸ (High Speed Train).

In the same regard it doesn't say what aircraft we're used to collect it

There's nearly 200 pages of background and 4mbytes of Data in three spread sheets (easily found from the source described at the base of the graph https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/greenhouse-gas-reporting-conversion-factors-2020

I have NOT read it all - have you, and can you confirm that it does not include that extra data you seek?

The last time I looked there was no rail line between London and Sydney, and lets be fair there will never be one! Nor will there be one to New York. The only way to get there is to fly. On that note flying is become more efficient and trying to be sustainable.

The domestic flight line makes a better comparison, perhaps.

Nor will there be one to New York. The only way to get there is to fly.

Not quite ... been there by boat ship.  Back twice that way. Lisa has done it more that I have.

[broadgage]

The resumption of flights is in my view regrettable.
If we are serious about climate change we need to fly a LOT less, and not more.

With the greatest of respect, don't be silly!  If you have no knowledge of a subject I don't think it's appropriate to comment on it.  Maybe you'd like to explain your reasoning to the 2,500 employees from Flybe, the 10,000 from BA^» (British Airways - about) and 1,900 at Easyjet who are all out of jobs?

I see nothing silly in my remarks. Aviation is inherently virtually 100% fossil fuel powered. A transatlantic flight burns hundreds of liters of fuel per passenger.
The problem is not just the fuel used per mile, which is broadly similar to a car, but also the speed of air transport which permits of greater distances being covered.
Few people would drive 4,000 miles each way for a holiday, but many people do fly a similar distance.

I don't have detailed knowledge of the air transport industry, but I do know the following.
Virtually 100% fossil fuel powered.
Consumption per passenger mile broadly similar to driving, but much greater distances are covered.
A significant and increasing source of atmospheric carbon dioxide.

And yes I do feel sorry for those thrown out of work by airlines and aircraft builders.
If public money must be used to preserve jobs, then this should be in greener industries than air transport.

[broadgage]

Make have a real look at aviation and what they are doing to improve things. Not just because of peer pressure from Green Peace. But because using fuel = money, using less fuel means saving money which means greater profit. Especially now that Covid has taken out most of the oldest and least fuel efficient aircraft. By the times things improve most fleets will modern and very environmentally friendly. A350, 787 etc.

This idiotic idea that aircraft are 'gas guzzlers' is so far from the truth, if it were true most airline would have gone backrupt 10 years ago!

I cant consider air transport as being "very environmentally friendly" when it is virtually 100% fossil fuel powered, and when total fuel used by aviation is increasing.
Any slight improvement in fuel efficiency is swamped by more flying.

And anyway, quite a few airlines HAVE gone bust in the last 10 years, being bailed out in various ways.
And they would probably all go bust if they had to pay tax on the fuel used, perhaps at the same rate as levied on road fuel.

I repeat that if we are serious about climate change, that we need to fly a LOT less.
To move towards flying a lot less, we, as a nation, need to avoid taking policy decisions that subsidise or otherwise encourage flying.

[southwest]

Make have a real look at aviation and what they are doing to improve things. Not just because of peer pressure from Green Peace. But because using fuel = money, using less fuel means saving money which means greater profit. Especially now that Covid has taken out most of the oldest and least fuel efficient aircraft. By the times things improve most fleets will modern and very environmentally friendly. A350, 787 etc.

This idiotic idea that aircraft are 'gas guzzlers' is so far from the truth, if it were true most airline would have gone backrupt 10 years ago!

I cant consider air transport as being "very environmentally friendly" when it is virtually 100% fossil fuel powered, and when total fuel used by aviation is increasing.
Any slight improvement in fuel efficiency is swamped by more flying.

And anyway, quite a few airlines HAVE gone bust in the last 10 years, being bailed out in various ways.
And they would probably all go bust if they had to pay tax on the fuel used, perhaps at the same rate as levied on road fuel.

I repeat that if we are serious about climate change, that we need to fly a LOT less.
To move towards flying a lot less, we, as a nation, need to avoid taking policy decisions that subsidise or otherwise encourage flying.

Firstly, nearly everything transport wise is still fossil fuel powered, Cars, Trains, Buses. Even electric trains & cars are still fossil fuel powered the only difference is the source is somewhere else.

As for very few airlines going bust, let me explain a few things. Firstly aviation like the railway has boomed since the 2008 crisis, in fact until coronavirus very few old aircraft we're grounded, the lowest in aviation history in fact, brand new aircraft could not come out of the factory fast enough.

Yet during that time Air Berlin, Air Southwest, Thomas Cook, Monarch, Flybe and almost Virgin Atlantic have gone bust that's only the handful I can think of, since Covid 26 airlines around the world have gone bust.

Before Covid-19 aviation was predicted to grow 30% in the next 3 years, once we get out of the this mess it will grown again because supply and demand is there.

I would also like to point out how each time you've commented about commercial airlines yet fail to mention the many thousands of light private aircraft which fly every day.

[Bob_Blakey]

Back on topic momentarily Loganair start flying Newcastle<>Exeter twice weekly (Mon & Fri) today. The Monday southbound and Friday northbound services start/end at Aberdeen with a 20 minute NCL stop (which might have been useful to me 40 years ago!).

[TaplowGreen]

Back on topic momentarily Loganair start flying Newcastle<>Exeter twice weekly (Mon & Fri) today. The Monday southbound and Friday northbound services start/end at Aberdeen with a 20 minute NCL stop (which might have been useful to me 40 years ago!).

............will this provide competition for the Penzance-Aberdeen sleeper service? 

[grahame]

Back on topic momentarily Loganair start flying Newcastle<>Exeter twice weekly (Mon & Fri) today. The Monday southbound and Friday northbound services start/end at Aberdeen with a 20 minute NCL stop (which might have been useful to me 40 years ago!).

............will this provide competition for the Penzance-Aberdeen sleeper service? 

Reminds me of a situation 25 years ago ... I said "People keep asking me for that, and I keep telling them there is no demand". Then I thought about what I was saying and built a business on it ....

[TonyK]

............will this provide competition for the Penzance-Aberdeen sleeper service? 

Not directly (or dreckly in this case), but it does make The next High Speed line (HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s))) a no brainer, with an extension to Cornwall.

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying abbreviation

[TaplowGreen]

BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) News - Flybe set to fly again after brand is rescued
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-54596915

Good news for the South West.

[TonyK]

The cynic may think that the investors chose to let Flybe fail, then pick up the pieces that were worth something, but not the pensions or debts. It is potentially good news for the people of Devon (me), and I await developments with keen anticipation.

[GBM]

Likewise for Newquay, and especially flights to Heathrow and Manchester.

Yes, British Airways has one flight a day to London, but more would be welcome!
Manchester was also a good transfer destination from Newquay.

[Bob_Blakey]

I will watch (any) developments with interest, although very much doubt there is enough potential passenger traffic remaining in the southwest for an exhumed Flybe to re-establish Exeter as a centre of operations. Depending of how many other operators have moved in to former Flybe locations perhaps restarting from Birmingham or Southampton might be a better bet.