Wrexham & Shropshire launch date

[whole diary]

[devon_metro]

Its disgraceful really, it shows that Virmin have spare stock (221s) that could be used to alleviate some of the ridiculous conditions you are likely to find when travelling with everybody's favourite, Cross Country.

[Btline]

This makes my blood boil.

 Someone called Jake has summed it up on the comments below the article.

What^s the betting they wouldn^t have bothered with this had Wrexham & Shropshire not taken the risk and demonstrated there^s a market for it?

My prediction: they^ll gain a couple of slots for peak time travel but won^t be interested in running services at any other times. They^ll use their strong market position and cut throat ticket pricing tactics to oust W&S^▸ (Wrexham and Shropshire (Open Access Operator)), who will then be forced to withdraw altogether, taking the other times with them, leaving Shropshire rail users with, effectively, zero choice when it comes to direct travel to London. Oh, and when they^ve seen off the competition they^ll bump their prices up to astronomical levels.

Jake - you've hit the nail on the head!

And I agree with Devon Metro - this shows to me that VWC did not need those 5 extra Voyagers in December.

If it happens, I can't see W&S surviving. Their peak demand from Wrexham, Shrewsbury and Telford will be gone - along with the season ticket holders and "Anytime" holders.

Grrrr......
 

[thetrout]

I think thats totally out of order.

W&S^▸ (Wrexham and Shropshire (Open Access Operator)) are a fabulous company and I would choose a MKIII/67 over a Voyager any day. As I'm sure the majority of the CoffeShop would :

W&S are doing a great job, so why can't VT^▸ (Virgin Trains - former franchises) just leave them alone and admit defeat?? They had their chance, they chose not to take it. As far as i'm concerned, thats Tough Luck.

I guess it's all to do with ^ and politics between rival companies, take my First Class Lounge incident for example!

VT are too powerful, I frown at them

[Btline]

I'm a bit confused at the timings.

Assuming that the West Coast timetable is not going to be re-cast next year, I can't see where the trains fit in with the current timetable.

The article says that the trains will leave London at 1033 and 1746. But the Chester/Bangor/Holyhead services (the Voyager route) leave Euston at XX10.

No VT^▸ (Virgin Trains - former franchises) service leaves Euston at XX33. And at XX46, a LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) service departs (for Crewe).

There are also no other matches on "up" services.

Perhaps the trains will be running independently. Will they call at Nuneaton?

I expect VT will call at Tame Bridge, to ensure W&S^▸ (Wrexham and Shropshire (Open Access Operator)) are wiped out completely......

[thetrout]

Would I be right in thinking that if I bought a Ticket on a W&S^▸ (Wrexham and Shropshire (Open Access Operator)) train, they would get the money for it?

If so I will personally make sure that I do so to give them my full support over VT^▸ (Virgin Trains - former franchises)

Yes, I am a mean person

[super tm]

If you buy a ticket on their train then they will get all the money only if the route is W&S^▸ (Wrexham and Shropshire (Open Access Operator)) only. 

Any other ticket will be shared out according to a set formula.  it wont matter where you buy it from.

[eightf48544]

Super TM^‡(resolve) it is right it is a very complex formula.

In essence I believe any TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) that stops a train at a station gets a minimum of 9% of the revenue of that station. That's why NXEC^▸ (National Express East Coast) don't like Grand Central stopping at York as it means GC^» (Great Central Railway - link to heritage line) gets at least 9% of York revenues even if they don't provided 9% of the services. Hence Virgin will want to stop at Tame Bridge Parkway.

Further if you buy a ticket online from say Chiltern (well recommended), they get a minimum of 9% of the fare just for issuing the ticket, even if your journey dosen't go anywhere near a Chiltern train.

As far as I know to get all the money for a ticket sale the TOC has to be the sole provider of the service on the route, so not a shared service or any changes to other TOCs, and be the ticket seller. So Taplow Maidenhead would all be FGW^▸ (First Great Western) revenue if sold at either station.

How tickets are apportioned for multi TOC journeys I don't know.

London gets very complicated with apportioning the Zonal portion of season tickets and travelcards. I believe TOCS pay TFL^▸ (Transport for London) a portion of the fare to cover an all Zone ticket. TFL then doles out the money to London Buses, DLR^▸ (Docklands Light Railway), Croydon trams, LUL^▸ (London Underground Ltd) and the TOCs providing services within the zones.

What in effect has happened is that there is now a computerised Railway Clearing House allocating ticket revenue to the TOCs.

[paul7575]

This [above] doesn't sound quite right. AIUI^▸ (as I understand it), the 9% is a commission paid 'off the top' of all tickets to the seller. That will either be the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) that runs the station ticket office, or the TOC telesales, or the TOC booking website, trainline, raileasy, or a rail appointed travel agent.

That then leaves either 91% of the face value to be shared out under Orcats rules, or 91% direct to the appropriate TOC if the fare is an 'Advance'

[Advance + connections are a half way house - some goes to the TOC, and some via Orcats - e.g. the '+connections' leg.]

Paul

[willc]

I'm a bit confused at the timings.

Assuming that the West Coast timetable is not going to be re-cast next year, I can't see where the trains fit in with the current timetable.

The article says that the trains will leave London at 1033 and 1746. But the Chester/Bangor/Holyhead services (the Voyager route) leave Euston at XX10.

No VT^▸ (Virgin Trains - former franchises) service leaves Euston at XX33. And at XX46, a LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) service departs (for Crewe).

There are also no other matches on "up" services.

Perhaps the trains will be running independently. Will they call at Nuneaton?

I expect VT will call at Tame Bridge, to ensure W&S^▸ (Wrexham and Shropshire (Open Access Operator)) are wiped out completely......

The route Virgin are proposing doesn't go via Tame Bridge, but via Walsall. The Sutton Park line runs from Walsall to Water Orton, where the Nuneaton and Derby lines divide east of Brimingham, and allows freight from those directions and the south-west to reach Bescot without going through New Street, or bypass Birmingham altogether. There have long been proposals to reopen it to provide a circular Birmingham-Walsall-Sutton Coldfield-Birmingham passenger service but nothing has happened so far.

I'm sure the trains would run separate from anything else. Coupling and uncoupling would muck up the timings of Chester and North Wales services.

As I said, Virgin has got a lot of flak in north Warwickshire for cutting services from Nuneaton - with people being told to use LM's 3+2 suburban EMUs^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit) instead. Remind you of any other recent changes of train type by our favourite operator? This way Virgin can claim they are doing something, even if it's not the real reason.

There will be fierce objections to this plan from W&S, ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) - whose own London plans were clearly something Virgin also doesn't like - and I would also expect the Shropshire councils and MPs^▸ (Member of Parliament) to take a dim view. They have been let down before by Virgin, who, when the Voyagers and Pendolinos were being delivered, chose not to anything better than than the single Shrewsbury train a day they offered from 1998-2004. As you can see from the comments on the Shropshire Star's story, most of the locals seem pretty sceptical too.

And don't be surprised if XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) ask for some Voyagers back.

[Btline]

I didn't realise they were going that way - the Sutton Park line - an obvious choice now you mention it - I wonder what line speeds will be like...

Perhaps the introduction of local passengers services will become a step closer (or perhaps the VT^▸ (Virgin Trains - former franchises) service could stop at Aldridge).

I expect they'll stop at Walsall to cream off W&S^▸ (Wrexham and Shropshire (Open Access Operator))'s revenue.

[welshman]

Are they ever going to get their own W & S rolling stock which seems to have been 12 months in coming.

[willc]

Stock is still being finished at Stoke. Believe the delay is to do with W&S^▸ (Wrexham and Shropshire (Open Access Operator)) changing the specification for the interiors at a late stage, as bodywork repairs on the coaches were well under way last summer. May also be that there still seem to be some Grand Central coaches going through the workshop as well.

But doesn't look like it will be too long now, here's a pic of a painted W&S coach in the yard at Marcroft http://cjburgess.photographs.fotopic.net/p56437016.html

Virgin say they will stop at Walsall - but it's not about Walsall or Tame Bridge, it's about Telford and Shrewsbury revenue, where it's clear W&S has been taking it away from Virgin/ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))).

And it's called the Sutton Park Line - because it runs through Sutton Park.

[John R]

Super TM^‡(resolve) it is right it is a very complex formula.

In essence I believe any TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) that stops a train at a station gets a minimum of 9% of the revenue of that station. That's why NXEC^▸ (National Express East Coast) don't like Grand Central stopping at York as it means GC^» (Great Central Railway - link to heritage line) gets at least 9% of York revenues even if they don't provided 9% of the services. Hence Virgin will want to stop at Tame Bridge Parkway.

Further if you buy a ticket online from say Chiltern (well recommended), they get a minimum of 9% of the fare just for issuing the ticket, even if your journey dosen't go anywhere near a Chiltern train.

As far as I know to get all the money for a ticket sale the TOC has to be the sole provider of the service on the route, so not a shared service or any changes to other TOCs, and be the ticket seller. So Taplow Maidenhead would all be FGW^▸ (First Great Western) revenue if sold at either station.

How tickets are apportioned for multi TOC journeys I don't know.

London gets very complicated with apportioning the Zonal portion of season tickets and travelcards. I believe TOCS pay TFL^▸ (Transport for London) a portion of the fare to cover an all Zone ticket. TFL then doles out the money to London Buses, DLR^▸ (Docklands Light Railway), Croydon trams, LUL^▸ (London Underground Ltd) and the TOCs providing services within the zones.

What in effect has happened is that there is now a computerised Railway Clearing House allocating ticket revenue to the TOCs.

Not right, as Paul 7755 has said. The 9% is if you like the commission for the sale of the ticket. Orcats allocates the rest. Crudely if GC run 3 of 30 fast trains to York, they will get 10% of the revenue. But it's a lot more complicated than that, as FCC^▸ (First Capital Connect) will get a fraction of the revenue as their trains might be used as far as Peterborough, and I believe services via Cambridge also get a tiny portion of revenue as that is a permitted route too. There are further adjustments to be made for the fact that passengers are more likely to take trains that are faster.

So all very complicated, and just one of the many industries created by privatisation that never existed before.

So, as an aside, if you buy your Bristol to London ticket through the Nat ExEC website, they get 9% of the revenue. I can't decide whether that's a good thing or not!

[IndustryInsider]

Futher slight tweaks to the new WSMR^▸ (Wrexham, Shropshire and Marylebone Railway) timetable sees around 5-10 minutes shaved off of the through journey times from Wrexham to London on most trains. The fourth service has now been extended through from Shrewsbury to Wrexham, though it's still one train per weekday short of the original quota.

Also, trains are now stopping to pick up and set down at Banbury and Leamington Spa, meaning a more frequent service to and from London for those stations.

[ChrisB]

And the 1st class supplement payable on the train to / from Banbury / Leamington will be ^15 single.

Also, you'll be able to use Network CVards / GoldCards to / from Banbury on WSMR^▸ (Wrexham, Shropshire and Marylebone Railway)....