Future of Class 180s?

[whole diary]

[southwest]

As we all know the current future for the Class 180 is with Grand Central and EMR^» (East Midlands Railway, also known as EMT^» (East Midlands Trains - about) (East Midlands Trains) - about), but if in the future that changes what other uses could they have?

I was told once before by someone they have the same engine and bodyshell as the Class 175, only a different cab.  So could it be possible to modify them to Class 175s and put them to use in Wales?

[Celestial]

As we all know the current future for the Class 180 is with Grand Central and EMR^» (East Midlands Railway, also known as EMT^» (East Midlands Trains - about) (East Midlands Trains) - about), but if in the future that changes what other uses could they have?

I was told once before by someone they have the same engine and bodyshell as the Class 175, only a different cab.  So could it be possible to modify them to Class 175s and put them to use in Wales?

In theory yes, but TfW has committed to eliminating use of the Class 175s when it's new stock appears, so it's not immediately obvious why it would want to do that. And they have a dreadful reliability record, which means that franchise operators would probably have been wary of taking them on. Though with a return to franchises unlikely, they will go where the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) says, though that won't be Wales, as it doesn't have any authority to dictate rolling stock here.

[grahame]

As we all know the current future for the Class 180 is with Grand Central and EMR^» (East Midlands Railway, also known as EMT^» (East Midlands Trains - about) (East Midlands Trains) - about), but if in the future that changes what other uses could they have?

I was told once before by someone they have the same engine and bodyshell as the Class 175, only a different cab.  So could it be possible to modify them to Class 175s and put them to use in Wales?

In theory yes, but TfW has committed to eliminating use of the Class 175s when it's new stock appears, so it's not immediately obvious why it would want to do that. And they have a dreadful reliability record, which means that franchise operators would probably have been wary of taking them on. Though with a return to franchises unlikely, they will go where the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) says, though that won't be Wales, as it doesn't have any authority to dictate rolling stock here.

My understanding is that the 175s have become much more reliable with the TLC^▸ (three letter code ) of Chester depot ... but even together, these classes are relatively small in numbers so none-standard, so they may not be very popular to take on.  Issues with spares, with mechanic knowledge, etc, over the years.

In the list below I have bolded all the high speed diesel trains (probably should not have included the 801)

Only 14 class 180 buit

27 class 175

27 class 222

34 class 220
44 class 221
(78 in group)

96 class 142

76 class 165
21 class 166
(97 in group)

100 class 125 / HST^▸ (High Speed Train)

114 class 155
42 class 156
(156 in group)

137 class 150

182 class 158/9

93 class 800
42 class 801
60 class 802
(195 in group)

[Celestial]

For clarity I meant the Class 180s have a terrible reliability record which would make them an unattractive proposition, although I can see how my wording was rather ambiguous.

[southwest]

So what future do other's see for them? Scrap? Sell off to another country?

[IndustryInsider]

Impossible to tell, especially with the current situation making anything difficult to predict.  They will remain low down the list for operators purely because of their reputation, but situations like the one with EMR^» (East Midlands Railway, also known as EMT^» (East Midlands Trains - about) (East Midlands Trains) - about) might occur and leave them as a viable option.

[grahame]

For clarity I meant the Class 180s have a terrible reliability record which would make them an unattractive proposition, although I can see how my wording was rather ambiguous.

Indeed - I got what you meant and added another reason for reluctance.   Who would make a 'top choice' of a small, unreliable class?

The future of open access operations, where the 180s have been used quite a bit of late, will be very interesting with the collapse of the franchising model.  As it has been, open access has filled in the gaps that the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) hasn't been interested enough in filling; with the business model for extra services changed beyond recognition, will anyone want to run them?   The DfT wasn't really interested before, what chance that they are now?

For standardisation, the 180s may have a short life like the diesel hydraulics, or they may find themselves a secondary line that requires around 8 to 10 unit diagrams per day and has at least some sections of fast running.

Sell off to another country?

Interesting question. They are unusual models in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom). Are they a design variant of something that's used elsewhere?

[rogerw]

For clarity I meant the Class 180s have a terrible reliability record which would make them an unattractive proposition, although I can see how my wording was rather ambiguous.

For standardisation, the 180s may have a short life like the diesel hydraulics, or they may find themselves a secondary line that requires around 8 to 10 unit diagrams per day and has at least some sections of fast running.

Sell off to another country?

Interesting question. They are unusual models in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom). Are they a design variant of something that's used elsewhere?

Cardiff Portsmouth anyone. Lower speeds may make them more reliable

[IndustryInsider]

Cardiff Portsmouth anyone. Lower speeds may make them more reliable

That gives you about 170 seats per train less than a 5-car Turbo.  Much more comfortable seats, mind you.

[grahame]

Cardiff Portsmouth anyone. Lower speeds may make them more reliable

That gives you about 170 seats per train less than a 5-car Turbo.  Much more comfortable seats, mind you.

I would need to check on specific varieties but ...

3 car 158 (as used until a few months back) - 200 seats
5 car 180 (as talked about there) - 287 seats
5 car 165+166 - about 420 seats

The 158s were getting overcrowded BUT consider
- is 2+3 too crammed for a longer journey?
- when will we be allowed to sit that close anyway?
- do we really need the doubling of seats per train or is it overkill?
- Once MetroWest starts 2 per hour Bristol to Westbury, will that abstract a lot of passengers?
- How about passengers transferring to the second train per hour south of WSB^» (Westbury - next trains) when SWI^» (Swindon - next trains) to SOA comes along?
- Does end door work for this service with high intermediate traffic?
- Where is the front door on a 180 - can it realistically stop at DMH^» (Dilton Marsh - next trains)?
- Is there a buffet in a 180 and could it be taken out for more seats?

[southwest]

Cardiff Portsmouth anyone. Lower speeds may make them more reliable

That gives you about 170 seats per train less than a 5-car Turbo.  Much more comfortable seats, mind you.

I would need to check on specific varieties but ...

3 car 158 (as used until a few months back) - 200 seats
5 car 180 (as talked about there) - 287 seats
5 car 165+166 - about 420 seats

The 158s were getting overcrowded BUT consider
- is 2+3 too crammed for a longer journey?
- when will we be allowed to sit that close anyway?
- do we really need the doubling of seats per train or is it overkill?
- Once MetroWest starts 2 per hour Bristol to Westbury, will that abstract a lot of passengers?
- How about passengers transferring to the second train per hour south of WSB^» (Westbury - next trains) when SWI^» (Swindon - next trains) to SOA comes along?
- Does end door work for this service with high intermediate traffic?
- Where is the front door on a 180 - can it realistically stop at DMH^» (Dilton Marsh - next trains)?
- Is there a buffet in a 180 and could it be taken out for more seats?

I did think about this and i'm sure someone else raised this question when i did some browsing the other night, someone said it would be a waste of a 125mph unit.   It's a shame the Class 172 is no longer being made, I'd imagine GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) would have put in a decent sized order, replace the entire mixed local fleet with a large batch of 172s in various lengths, 2/3/4 possibly 5 cars.

[grahame]

I did think about this and i'm sure someone else raised this question when i did some browsing the other night, someone said it would be a waste of a 125mph unit.   It's a shame the Class 172 is no longer being made, I'd imagine GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) would have put in a decent sized order, replace the entire mixed local fleet with a large batch of 172s in various lengths, 2/3/4 possibly 5 cars.

There was an order for around a dozen 4 car units very similar to the 172 for the Cardiff / Portsmouth service about to be placed a few years back - but electrification of the Paddington lines was announce and the displaced diesel multiple units were earmarked for cascade to the line, which is what has happened.

[eightonedee]

The thought occurred to me reading this thread - I assume the only reason  they have not already been scrapped is that their working life has been during a period of expanding demand for capacity. Had they been around in the 1960s they would have been culled long before their upcoming 20th birthdays. Having said that, when some were brought back to the GW^▸ (Great Western) system and some were used in some of the peak Oxford-Reading-Paddington morning services that called at all stations from Didcot to Reading, they were an enormous step up in comfort from the Turbos.

The capacity became a problem when  they were being substituted for 5 car Turbo services, which had much greater seating capacity as set out by II above, on some busy commuter services. I remember aggrieved passengers from Newbury complaining of this in the Newbury Weekly News at the time.

The key question - how much do they cost to run? If you can run one for about the same cost as a 158, then perhaps they might find a niche, but if they cost more than 50% more, it's difficult to see one.  

[Richard Fairhurst]

For clarity I meant the Class 180s have a terrible reliability record which would make them an unattractive proposition, although I can see how my wording was rather ambiguous.

Old Oak Common really got the hang of them in their latter days: as a regular 180 passenger on the Cotswold Line, I don't recall having any mechanical-induced cancellations in their last few years. It's noticeable that their new stewards haven't been quite so adept.

As a passenger I slightly prefer them to IETs^▸ (Intercity Express Train) - they feel airier and the bike space is so much better. But then I don't have to repair them...

[IndustryInsider]

Only achieved with a very intensive and expensive maintenance programme.  No usage at weekends, and travelling ‘fitters’ regularly on board or meeting all arrivals at Paddington.