More short formed trains 1/4/08

[whole diary]

[IanL]

15:51 London Paddington to Worcester Shrub Hill due 18:09
This train has been revised.This train will run short formed with 3 carriages.This is due to a train fault.

This train is normally a very full HST^▸ (High Speed Train), running a 5 car Adelante as sometimes happens causes chaos with overcrowding. Running a 3 car turbo is insane!

[Btline]

15:51 London Paddington to Worcester Shrub Hill due 18:09
This train has been revised.This train will run short formed with 3 carriages.This is due to a train fault.

This train is normally a very full HST^▸ (High Speed Train), running a 5 car Adelante as sometimes happens causes chaos with overcrowding. Running a 3 car turbo is insane!

This is abysmal!

What about that so called "spare" 180?

Or has it been used to cover for the Thames Turbo (commuter services taking prioirty over InterCity as usual!)?

[johoare]

15:51 London Paddington to Worcester Shrub Hill due 18:09
This train has been revised.This train will run short formed with 3 carriages.This is due to a train fault.

This train is normally a very full HST^▸ (High Speed Train), running a 5 car Adelante as sometimes happens causes chaos with overcrowding. Running a 3 car turbo is insane!

This is abysmal!

What about that so called "spare" 180?

Or has it been used to cover for the Thames Turbo (commuter services taking prioirty over InterCity as usual!)?

Do you know that's the first time I've heard anyone say that the commuter services take priority over intercity... It's usually (and has been for years in my opinion) the other way round....

[Btline]

15:51 London Paddington to Worcester Shrub Hill due 18:09
This train has been revised.This train will run short formed with 3 carriages.This is due to a train fault.

This train is normally a very full HST^▸ (High Speed Train), running a 5 car Adelante as sometimes happens causes chaos with overcrowding. Running a 3 car turbo is insane!

This is abysmal!

What about that so called "spare" 180?

Or has it been used to cover for the Thames Turbo (commuter services taking prioirty over InterCity as usual!)?

Do you know that's the first time I've heard anyone say that the commuter services take priority over intercity... It's usually (and has been for years in my opinion) the other way round....

Everything takes priority over the Cotswold Line! That's my point.

[dog box]

There were 2 180 sets in OOK Poorly yesterday.........now there is a surprise!!!!!

[Andy W]

There were 2 180 sets in OOK Poorly yesterday.........now there is a surprise!!!!!

I understand that new products, be they trains, cars, whatever have teething problems. These are normally fixed with modifications within  a period of time.

Then, assuming faults due to wear and tear are fixed correctly and the product is properly maintained, unscheduled problems should happen rarely.

The fact that the few remaining 180s are still so unreliable must surley be down to poor maintenance.   

Can anyone shed any light as to why they are still so poor?

Are FGW^▸ (First Great Western) incapable of getting the problems that often come with a new product sorted out?

I may be wrong (please correct me if I am) but the new HST^▸ (High Speed Train) power cars do not seem to be wholly reliable yet. Will they become 180 mk 2s?

 

[IanL]

Andy, I think that therein lies the problem, yes the 180's are still proving unreliable....but they were not supposed to be on the cotswold line yesterday, because the 180's were out of action they could not even form the inadequate backup plan to a HST^▸ (High Speed Train) not being available.

[Btline]

Are, so an HST^▸ (High Speed Train) failed, then 2 180s failed. 

Leaving the Cotswold line with a Thames Turbo 3 car.

Oh, why can't FGW^▸ (First Great Western) give some 180s to NXEC^▸ (National Express East Coast) to free up an HST or two (with Mallard interiors ).

[welshman]

The Adelante reliability problems are slightly puzzling.  180s are after all only 175s with streamlined ends and 750bhp instead of 450bhp but the same Voith transmission arrangement.  The 19 litre (I think) engines are also used in Voyagers which are of course diesel-electric rather than diesel hydraulic.  They don't seem to break too often.  ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) don't have (or conceal well) problems with 175s. On my limited experience from Abergavenny to Manchester and back (^10 each way) they seem rather pleasant trains.

Is it just a case of too much power for the transmissions?  But you'd think with 5 powered cars you could get home some shape with as few as two running.  A class 37 could manage 5 carriages with only 1,750 bhp.

I always thought that was the point of the HST^▸ (High Speed Train).  As long as one engine was running you could get home eventually.  Even Pacers manage that.

Comments? Theories?  Facts?

[Btline]

The Adelante reliability problems are slightly puzzling.  180s are after all only 175s with streamlined ends and 750bhp instead of 450bhp but the same Voith transmission arrangement.  The 19 litre (I think) engines are also used in Voyagers which are of course diesel-electric rather than diesel hydraulic.  They don't seem to break too often.  ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) don't have (or conceal well) problems with 175s. On my limited experience from Abergavenny to Manchester and back (^10 each way) they seem rather pleasant trains.

Is it just a case of too much power for the transmissions?  But you'd think with 5 powered cars you could get home some shape with as few as two running.  A class 37 could manage 5 carriages with only 1,750 bhp.

I always thought that was the point of the HST^▸ (High Speed Train).  As long as one engine was running you could get home eventually.  Even Pacers manage that.

Comments? Theories?  Facts?

You are right. The 180s have more in common with the 175s, as they are both part of the "Cordia" family. All the problems with the 175s have been with air con, the PA^▸ (Public Address) system, and the info screens - all software related.

As far as engines - they have been fine!

But I think the main problems with the 180s is the door opening system!

PS - I have seen Adelantes with 1 or 2 engines out!

[willc]

Oh, why can't FGW^▸ (First Great Western) give some 180s to NXEC^▸ (National Express East Coast) to free up an HST^▸ (High Speed Train) or two (with Mallard interiors)

Because they too need every HST they can get their hands on - and all the nine coaches on many peak-hour trains. Why would they want FGW's cast-offs?

ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) don't have (or conceal well) problems with 175s.

While Alstom's engineers at Chester depot have now got them running okay, the 175s were, like 180s, notorious for unreliability for several years after their introduction.

The powertrains themselves have never been the problem. I think someone (swlines?) has noted in another thread there are problems with positioning of parts of the cooler group, which lead to overheating.

180s, as with Voyagers, were designed to be able to keep to booked times with one engine out of action.

PS: I saw the one 180 that was still working on Tuesday on the 11.51 London to Hereford, running fast between Kingham and Moreton-in-Marsh. The 2x180 combination was in action again on Wednesday, arriving back in Oxford at 10am after working the 7.10 to London.

[Btline]

Oh, why can't FGW^▸ (First Great Western) give some 180s to NXEC^▸ (National Express East Coast) to free up an HST^▸ (High Speed Train) or two (with Mallard interiors)

Because they too need every HST they can get their hands on - and all the nine coaches on many peak-hour trains. Why would they want FGW's cast-offs?

A double 180 would give 10 carriages to NX's 9.

FGW could then have an 9 car HST!

Everyone wins (perhaps apart from NX, who would end up with poor reliability 180s....but that doesn't matter. As long as FGW have an HST...)!!!!!!!

[devon_metro]

180s are more suited than an HST^▸ (High Speed Train) to Worcester services. I can't seem to work out why you have a personal vendetta against the Adelantes considering they have more tables and are more comfortable not forgetting faster!

[IanL]

The problems with the Adelantes include:

Noisy (unbelievably so in every carriage when accelerating hard)
Unreliable
Only slightly more seats than a turbo

On a line which is limited by the number of trains (due to single line) and turbos/adelantes are extremely crowded then HST^▸ (High Speed Train) is the way to go, a turbo for 3+ hours is not suitable accomodation.

[Btline]

180s are more suited than an HST^▸ (High Speed Train) to Worcester services. I can't seem to work out why you have a personal vendetta against the Adelantes considering they have more tables and are more comfortable not forgetting faster!

My suggestion was not because I hate 180s, but so FGW^▸ (First Great Western) would get another HST! 

To be quite honest, I can't make up my mind whether HSTs or 180s should be used on the Cotswold Line (I fear that my posts waver!).

Let's sum it up.

Why 180s are better:

*better acceleration
*less SDO^▸ (Selective Door Opening)
*better seat number off peak (esp after Oxford)

Why HSTs are better:

*more seats for peal times
*quieter (hopefully) and more smooth
*power sockets

Come on - add to my lists, and let us find out which is better!