Contactless Payment on GWR services to Reading

[whole diary]

[Andrew]

My understanding is that contactless payment should now be accepted on all services fast and slow between London and Reading. However, GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) website is not particularly clear on this, and I'm finding that neither ticket office staff at Reading nor many train managers on long distance services have any understanding of this. Repeated advice I've received at Reading ticket office is that contactless is only valid on TfL^» (Transport for London - about) services, while I've now faced two rather bemused train managers on long distance GWR services who have had to ring their control for advice on what to do when I explain why I'm travelling without a ticket.

Using contactless to travel between Reading and London costs £24.40 peak and £10.60 off peak. The equivalent peak or off peak return paper tickets cost £48.90 and £21.20 so using contactless both ways will save you 10p on the paper tickets. However while a paper peak single ticket is a bit more than half a return at £25.90, a paper single off peak costs £21.20 only 10p less than the return. This means some much bigger savings are possible if you want to travel in the peak in one direction and off peak in the other, as using contactless you can buy a combination of peak and off peak tickets for £35, whereas doing the same for paperless costs £47.10. For someone like me who commutes occasionally into London and generally goes in early and back late this provides a nice saving.

To add the confusion, the definition of peak and off peak is different for contactless and paper tickets. In the evening from London, going contactless you are charged peak fare on any service if you tap in between 16:00 and 19:00, whereas an off peak paper ticket allows you to travel on a whole host of stopping services (mainly the TfL services) during this time.

This means one can now see a small group of wised up travellers loitering by the gate line at Paddington wanting to catch the 19:02 fast train to Reading, who all tap in as soon as the clock ticks past 19:00 and then run down the platform to jump on the train for £10.60. Meanwhile those with off peak paper tickets have to stand and watch or pay £25.90 for a peak single.

https://www.gwr.com/plan-journey/tickets-railcards-and-season-tickets/contactless-payment

[stuving]

Those are pretty much the questions I was asking earlier, on various threads.

Inwards from West Drayton, where contactless and Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) were already in use, the GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) paper tickets have the same role as TfL^» (Transport for London - about) paper tickets - a painfully expensive backup for those without cards, and an inducement to use them. But here it's a bit different, as without Oyster there is still a need for paper tickets, and the prices "match" - sort of.

I see what you mean about that GWR page of information being vague. It talks about accepting contactless, without separating the two different meanings of that - accepting at a station, by providing tap-in barriers, and accepting on trains as a valid ticket.

The official rules for using contactless might be found in the restriction code for it; and it does have one (PQ, for off-peak). However, it isn't a real code as it's not a real ticket in all respects. And the NRE^‡(resolve) journey planner doesn't recognise it, and offer it as a fare. From West Drayton inwards, a little message appears in the OJP^▸ (Online Journey Planner) saying what the contactless/Oyster cost would be "from" (i.e. off-peak). The words there, and on the page it links to, don't saying anything about specific journeys or trains, though. And from Reading, even that isn't shown.

What does code PQ say, for what it's worth? The ticket code is POC  CPAY OFFPK INFO; I assume INFO means for information only, not defining a proper ticket. The words mention Oyster, and capping, since the code applies to all contactless journeys. It defines the time validity as
"Not valid to depart   any location   0630–0930   on any TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company)"
 - but of course it works off tap-in time, not departure time. Anytime tickets don't have restriction codes, but peak contactless (PAC CPAY PEAK INFO) does: code PI. It has this limitation:
"Not valid to depart   any location   0931–2359   on any TOC".
And, to make the point that it's not a proper ticket, in the validity section (i.e. what future days) it says "NOT FOR TRAVEL (1 day)".

The text version is more sensible, and it is available at www.nationalrail.co.uk/pq (and /pi):

Restricted Days: All days
Outward Travel

Validity based on the time of touch in on the Oyster card validator at the origin station of the journey:

Mondays-Fridays not valid between 06:30-09:30 (also not valid between 16:00-19:00 if journey ends beyond Zone 1).

Valid all day Saturdays, Sundays and Bank Holidays.

Contactless Payment Card or Oyster card with pay as you go credit required. Not to be issued as traditional “paper” ticket.

Charges capped at daily price cap limit, based on all journeys made on the card between 04:30 and 04:29 the following day
 
Return Travel
Not applicable.

But we knew all that anyway, for PAYG^▸ (Pay as you go) as a whole. How this is all supposed to work out to Reading is still a bit of a puzzle, especially given the very different system of peak/off-peak acceptance on GWR trains in the evening.

[eightf48544]

I am fairly sure we were told by TFL^▸ (Transport for London) that contctless travel west of West Drayton would be confined to TFL services only.

Definitely told Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) only as far as West Drayton.

I've tried to get my cousin who works on ITSO cards to explain how contactless can calculate the correct fare but I'm still baffled.

[TaplowGreen]

I'm sure I've seen people tapping out at Taplow....given that it's virtually TfL^» (Transport for London - about) services only now, I'm guessing that would work OK?

[stuving]

I've tried to get my cousin who works on ITSO cards to explain how contactless can calculate the correct fare but I'm still baffled.

I think you may be confusing ITSO with PAYG^▸ (Pay as you go). Not surprising, as it is confusing.

Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) is PAYG, and works out your fare (or fares - added daily) afterwards from your tap-ins and -outs.

Oyster cards are not ITSO, as that was invented since Oyster was set up. All readers are (or soon sill be) able to read anything; Oyster, ITSO, money card (EMV). What makes a system PAYG is the back-office processing to work out charges and to handle credits and debitting.

ITSO cards can hold PAYG credit, if they are signed up to a host PAYG system. TfL^» (Transport for London - about) could do this, but have not yet done so (I think this is the second generation Oyster card, which they have put on indefinite hold).

SWR^» (South Western Railway - about) have just (September 2019) launched such a PAYG service using ITSO cards, called Tap2Go (this may warrant a thread of its own). It should work on anyone's card, not just theirs (now branded as Touch, like GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway)'s). Looking at the map for this, it only works outside the Oyster area and there is no overlap - so journeys through Feltham can't use either (unless you get out and the same little dance with the barriers needed between a paper ticket and Oyster).

There was a DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) consultation on PAYG in February 2019 (Pay-as-you-go on rail Consultation: Moving Britain Ahead). The document covers all this stuff, and shows where they (who?) want to extend PAYG to - notably Reading-Gatwick, around here.

[didcotdean]

I am fairly sure we were told by TFL^▸ (Transport for London) that contctless travel west of West Drayton would be confined to TFL services only.

From Contactless Payment is Here (as referred to above):

"To support TfL^» (Transport for London - about) Rail’s payment option, we are also offering Contactless pay as you go at all stations on the direct line between London Paddington and Reading."

Can't see any ambiguity there really, especially as later on it specifically excludes the GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) branch services. If the intention was this to mean at GWR-managed stations on TfL services it falls down.

[stuving]

I am fairly sure we were told by TFL^▸ (Transport for London) that contctless travel west of West Drayton would be confined to TFL services only.

From Contactless Payment is Here (as referred to above):

"To support TfL^» (Transport for London - about) Rail’s payment option, we are also offering Contactless pay as you go at all stations on the direct line between London Paddington and Reading."

Can't see any ambiguity there really, especially as later on it specifically excludes the GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) branch services. If the intention was this to mean at GWR-managed stations on TfL services it falls down.

I don't think that's the relevant bit - as I said before, that says you can tap in and out but not which trains you can use. The next paragraph is the one:

There is no difference in pay as you go fares between TfL Rail and GWR services. A morning peak between 06:30 and 09:30 covers east and westbound services. An afternoon peak between 16:00 and 19:00 applies only on westbound services.

That till doesn't say loud and clear "when using PAYG^▸ (Pay as you go) you can travel on GWR or TfL trains". But it does strongly imply it; otherwise it would be saying the fares are the same on GWR trains but you can't use them.

Of course that still leaves some open questions about peak/off-peak and the different Tfl and GWR rules for them.

[didcotdean]

Another piece of evidence is the latest edition of "London’s Rail & Tube services" which has been extended out to Reading and includes separate lines for TfL^» (Transport for London - about) Rail and GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) to Reading both within the PAYG^▸ (Pay as you go) boundary and outside the Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) boundary.

[stuving]

Another piece of evidence is the latest edition of "London’s Rail & Tube services" which has been extended out to Reading and includes separate lines for TfL^» (Transport for London - about) Rail and GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) to Reading both within the PAYG^▸ (Pay as you go) boundary and outside the Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) boundary.

Does that mean the map distinguishes between the two boundaries? The last one (May 2019) didn't.

The words in the Oyster box did, however, remind us that PAYG can charge different fares for different services on the same route. In theory. This was something we speculated about beforehand for Reading/Paddington (i.e. a Gatwick Express kind of set-up), but as it has not been announced can we dismiss it entirely?

[Marlburian]

Another piece of evidence is the latest edition of "London’s Rail & Tube services" which has been extended out to Reading and includes separate lines for TfL^» (Transport for London - about) Rail and GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) to Reading both within the PAYG^▸ (Pay as you go) boundary and outside the Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) boundary.

As an aside, someone unfamiliar with the London and the South East and looking at that map might be confused by apparently being able to head both west from Reading and south from central London to get to Guildford!

[johoare]

I've just asked GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) on twitter as the information on the GWR site is far from clear. Firstly they referred me straight back to their unclear information (sigh) so I asked explicitly if I was on a GWR train between Paddington and Maidenhead having paid by contactless what would happen if there was a ticket check

The reply "Yes, this can be checked on board by tapping your contactless card/phone onto the staff's reader"

So I will keep that as proof if nothing else..

I can't find anywhere that will tell me what the contactless fairs would be though?

[stuving]

I can't find anywhere that will tell me what the contactless fairs would be though?

I think TfL^» (Transport for London - about)'s single fare finder is the only place. I found that confusing before PAYG^▸ (Pay as you go) went live, as the big red flag saying the fares didn't exist masked the year selector. That's a question of familiarity, but I wonder how many users of PAYG within London ever look up single fares - after all, they are either "not much" or "capped anyway". Maybe the main users of the SFF will be out-of-towners.

[didcotdean]

They appear on the likes of www.brfares.com set by GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway), although incorrectly stating an Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) card is needed.

[onthecushions]

I asked at the Reading enquiries desk how to respond to GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) RP inspectors if I'd paid contactlessly. I was told that their "machine" could read a card (e.g a VISA debit!) and tell if it had been touched in.

I remember telling a similar tale to loud mobile users in coach A; that speaking loudly wrecked the battery!

I'm as intrigued to know that one can write to flash memory on a bank card, as I am to find that I can travel with a TfL^» (Transport for London - about) off peak ticket (c£10) in the last 20 minutes of the  GWR evening peak.

Enjoy the debate

OTC

[paul7575]

I asked at the Reading enquiries desk how to respond to GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) RP inspectors if I'd paid contactlessly. I was told that their "machine" could read a card (e.g a VISA debit!) and tell if it had been touched in.

I remember telling a similar tale to loud mobile users in coach A; that speaking loudly wrecked the battery!

I'm as intrigued to know that one can write to flash memory on a bank card, as I am to find that I can travel with a TfL^» (Transport for London - about) off peak ticket (c£10) in the last 20 minutes of the  GWR evening peak.

Enjoy the debate

OTC

This has regularly been discussed in another rail forum, and I don’t believe they can tell if a contactless bank card is touched in at all. On TfL they can only tell that on buses, because the bus can provide the inspector with a list of recently touched in card numbers.  Nothing is ever written to a contactless bank card, unlike Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services).

On Underground, DLR^▸ (Docklands Light Railway), trams and trains, they can tell only if a contactless bank card has previously been hotlisted, and if not then the on board check just records a ‘touch in’. The back office will work out later if the card was already showing “in the system” at that time, otherwise it will charge a maximum cash fare.

Paul