HS2 - the dissenting report

[whole diary]

[TaplowGreen]

If that was genuinely your intention, why stereotype so lazily at all?

Tongue, Cheek, therein.

And there is an element (who, yes, I lazily stereotyped) who seem to have an influence far out of proportion to their numbers.  I live in a county where around 66% of the population lives in urban settings, just 34% rural.  And a coupe of years back I looked the the composition of the (unitary) county's cabinet, noting that 18 out of 19 represented rural wards.  In Melksham, five out of six wards are urban in character, yet three out of six of the public "area board" meetings are held away form the centre - explained to me to "make sure we include the villages".

But the "country squires" if you call them that are, indeed, far from the only ones who care for the countryside. Which comment aligns with my original comment.

I think it's probably a good idea to focus on grahame's stereotyping. With luck, it might even distract people's attention from the fact that Tony Berkeley's own 'dissenting report' has blown the anti-HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) case so far out of the water that it's in danger of going into orbit.

Doing my best to stoke that fire, Red Squirrel!

Here's some fuel for your woodburner.

(Fewer places for foxes to hide from those ghastly country folk too Graham!) 

Expect plenty more of this...………….

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jan/10/hs2-destroyed-trees-in-way-of-train-line-without-permission

(As a member of the BBOWT I guess I should declare an interest).

[Red Squirrel]

It's absolutely right that HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) Ltd and/or its contractors should be held to account if, as appears to be the case, they have broken the law.

I fear that TG is right, and that there will be more incidents like this. In at massive project like HS2, there are sure to be mistakes and perhaps worse. This in no way weakens the case for HS2, though; it just makes a strong case for better management.

Calvert Jubliee Nature Reserve, where this incident occurred, is the site of an old landfill and brickworks adjacent to Calvert Junction. East-West Rail's route runs along the northern boundary of the site, whilst HS2's route is on the eastern edge of the reserve along the old Great Central trackbed.

HS2 Ltd plan to plant 75,000 trees in mitigation.

[Red Squirrel]

A little detail I missed:

Work which eradicated habitat where bats could roost was carried out in December, despite the government having ordered that “irreversible” destruction of ancient woodland  should be halted unless deemed absolutely necessary while HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) is under review.

Source: The Guardian, my highlighting

It's that word 'ancient'... Surely the trackbed of the Great Central as it runs past an old council tip cannot, by any stretch of anyone's imagination, be considered to be ancient woodland?

[grahame]

It's that word 'ancient'... Surely the trackbed of the Great Central as it runs past an old council tip cannot, by any stretch of anyone's imagination, be considered to be ancient woodland?

You would be surprised how quickly a section of ex-railway becomes a stronghold of nature, if not "ancient".  Not the only example - look to the issues that the Kent and East Sussex Railway has had getting the trackbed from Robertsbridge to Junction Road (about 4km out)

[stuving]

It's that word 'ancient'... Surely the trackbed of the Great Central as it runs past an old council tip cannot, by any stretch of anyone's imagination, be considered to be ancient woodland?

You would be surprised how quickly a section of ex-railway becomes a stronghold of nature, if not "ancient".  Not the only example - look to the issues that the Kent and East Sussex Railway has had getting the trackbed from Robertsbridge to Junction Road (about 4km out)

But "ancient woodland" is a technical term (though perhaps not a protected one). According to the Woodland Trust:

What is ancient woodland? Ancient woods are areas of woodland that have persisted since 1600 in England and Wales, and 1750 in Scotland. This is when maps started to be reasonably accurate so we can tell that these areas have had tree cover for hundreds of years. They are relatively undisturbed by human development.

[Red Squirrel]

It's that word 'ancient'... Surely the trackbed of the Great Central as it runs past an old council tip cannot, by any stretch of anyone's imagination, be considered to be ancient woodland?

You would be surprised how quickly a section of ex-railway becomes a stronghold of nature, if not "ancient".  Not the only example - look to the issues that the Kent and East Sussex Railway has had getting the trackbed from Robertsbridge to Junction Road (about 4km out)

As a long-time walker and cycler (if that's a word!) of old railway lines, I wouldn't. It's astonishing how quickly nature can recover if we just give it half a chance. Even a council tip can become an important wildlife haven in a relatively short time.

Knepp is an interesting case in point. In just 20 years it has gone from failing farm to internationally-important wildlife resource - and is now profitable. One might hope that some of HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s))'s mitigation follows this kind of lead.

[Marlburian]

... (As a member of the BBOWT I guess I should declare an interest).

On a personal note, so am I, and I do voluntary work on several of its sites in West Berkshire. Another site (not a BBOWT one) is Furze Hill, Hermitage, which includes a short stretch of the old Didcot, Newbury and Southampton line. Furze Hill is the site of a former brickworks close to where Pinewood Halt was and which was served by a siding, with a narrow-gauge railway inside the works.

At Furze Hill now are a housing development, large new village hall and playing fields, with some land being returned to nature. Every now and then we go along the former trackbed almost to the M4 cutting back growth. A couple of us, supported by contractors, have just extended the path along the bed the other side of the motorway bridge to Hampstead Norreys.

Nothing much of the old railway is to be seen, apart from a few fence posts, though there a couple of bridges to the south - and I think that the former Ministry of Supply cold store, once served by two sidings, still stands.

Marlburian

[eightonedee]

Quote from: TaplowGreen on Today at 10:55:47 am
... (As a member of the BBOWT I guess I should declare an interest).

On a personal note, so am I,

That makes at least three of us then...!

[TonyK]

A little detail I missed:

Work which eradicated habitat where bats could roost was carried out in December, despite the government having ordered that “irreversible” destruction of ancient woodland  should be halted unless deemed absolutely necessary while HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) is under review.

Source: The Guardian, my highlighting

It's that word 'ancient'... Surely the trackbed of the Great Central as it runs past an old council tip cannot, by any stretch of anyone's imagination, be considered to be ancient woodland?

Indeed. And "habitat where bats could roost" is by no means the same as "habitat where bats are roosting", any more than the muddy puddle in the road is a "habitat where newts could live", although they probably will. If anything, it makes sense to so the work now. Not only are the bats away, but birds are not nesting. Both will go somewhere else.

You are getting old when ancient woodland starts to look young. The Beeching forest is not ancient.

[grahame]

Here is another dissenting suggestion from the Mail Online

Transport adviser Andrew Gilligan urges Boris Johnson to axe HS2 in the South and instead use the money in the new Tory 'heartlands' of the North
* Transport adviser lobbies new Conservative MPs^▸ (Member of Parliament) to scrap HS2's southern route
* Andrew Gilligan advocates cancellation of phase one Birmingham to London leg
* Mr Gilligan has been closely linked to Mr Johnson since leaving the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) in 2004

[TaplowGreen]

Here is another dissenting suggestion from the Mail Online

Transport adviser Andrew Gilligan urges Boris Johnson to axe HS2 in the South and instead use the money in the new Tory 'heartlands' of the North
* Transport adviser lobbies new Conservative MPs^▸ (Member of Parliament) to scrap HS2's southern route
* Andrew Gilligan advocates cancellation of phase one Birmingham to London leg
* Mr Gilligan has been closely linked to Mr Johnson since leaving the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) in 2004

Removing the politics from the equation, and by way of an attempt to forestall the frothing at the mouth that citing the Mail inevitably provokes, he isn't alone in that view.

https://www.theengineer.co.uk/poll-reducing-cost-hs2/

(from before the election)

[IndustryInsider]

Removing the politics from the equation...

Trouble is, like it on not, politics is a fundamental part of the equation. 

So is ‘frothing at the mouth’.  From both sides of the argument.

[TaplowGreen]

Removing the politics from the equation...

Trouble is, like it on not, politics is a fundamental part of the equation. 

So is ‘frothing at the mouth’.  From both sides of the argument.

Public opinion is a fundamental part of the equation, and it tends to drive political considerations, (as Mr Corbyn has recently discovered), and I'd suggest that an article written prior to the election, in a specialist engineering publication with little or no political profile, is considerably more objective than that in the Mail, or the Rail/pro HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) lobby?

Citing articles in the Mail is often used deliberately to invite scorn to be poured upon them by default - when the view is backed up in the way the article in the Engineer supports (albeit arguably with different motivations), it should give pause for thought.

[IndustryInsider]

Public opinion is a fundamental part of the equation, and it tends to drive political considerations, (as Mr Corbyn has recently discovered), and I'd suggest that an article written prior to the election, in a specialist engineering publication with little or no political profile, is considerably more objective than that in the Mail, or the Rail/pro HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) lobby?

I quite agree - public opinion at the ballot box (though with HS2 as a very minor part of most people's thinking) gave the Tory party a large majority, and as a result the ability to pretty much do what they want.  So, it now shifts in that 'public opinion' of HS2 in itself matters very little, rightly or wrongly, and it is now much more about politics and keeping all Boris's new MPs^▸ (Member of Parliament) happy.  With a lot of those in the Midlands and north of England, it might actually mean projects specifically for that area get priority over HS2, or HS2 magically gets started in the north and scaled back further south - we'll just have to wait and see.  Either way, it looks like scrapping entirely it like you, and a few others on this forum, would wish, is the least likely option.

Citing articles in the Mail is often used deliberately to invite scorn to be poured upon them by default - when the view is backed up in the way the article in the Engineer supports (albeit arguably with different motivations), it should give pause for thought.

There should be no surprise that a poll of public opinion in any journal gives a high percentage of people saying it 'should be scrapped' - after all, most people just keep hearing about massive cost increases and the fact all it does is save 20 minutes on a journey from London to Birmingham.  It remains an unpopular project amongst the general public, but that doesn't mean it's not a sensible idea. 

Readers of The Engineer are likely to be better informed than most, but still not particularly well informed (the quote from a John Hartley in the link you quoted demonstrates that perfectly) about exactly what HS2 is being built for - mostly to add capacity on a creaking old network.  Now it is becoming clearer just what the alternative upgrades to that creaking old network will cost if HS2 doesn't go ahead, perhaps some will change their minds?

[ellendune]

The costs could be brought under control by changing the rather stupid procurement model that forces the contractors to heavily over-engineer, for example, the earthworks so that they are not subject to even minor settlement.  Routine maintenance of the structures would be a much cheaper way of dealing with that, but if you want to avoid it you are essentially asking for a viaduct rather than an embankment.