What counts as PM off peak?

[whole diary]

[onthecushions]

The new TT also has a new list of peak restrictions. Leaflet 641894 shows 12 Tfl and 5 GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) departures from Paddington to Reading as off peak (OP^▸ (Original Poster / topic starter)). The TfL^» (Transport for London - about)'s all take between 57 and 61 minutes, the GWR trains 27 to 48 minutes. This gives a very reasonable availability of departures (if running) and empty seats (for the moment).

My question comes from the NRE^‡(resolve) information that gives three day single (S) fares to Reading; 25.10 OS^▸ (Ordnance Survey) and TWO OPS's at 21.50 and 20.10. The 21.50 trains, usually calling only at Twyford etc are therefore now restricted. Is there a marginal validity for OP singles on some services but not CDR^▸ (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day'))'s or one day travelcards ?

If I am confused...

E&OE

OTC

[Adelante_CCT]

I wouldn't trust the info on National Rail at the moment. I was looking at off-peak validity back to Reading and it was suggesting it is not valid on most peak tfl services but is valid on a couple of them, and that it is not valid on the 16:42 fast to Didcot, but is valid on the 17:42 & 18:42 fast. Information I am sure not to be true

I played it safe yesterday and came back to Reading on the 15:37 fast to Newbury

[stuving]

If you look closely, you will see that the £21.50 fare is actually a Thames Branches Day Ranger! I've not looked at the restrictions as currently listed (nor do I know where any full restrictions, including unpublished ones, for rangers can be found), but presumably as now notified to the OJP^▸ (Online Journey Planner) this is valid after 16:00 on some specific trains. Perhaps this relates to the semifasts that used to be allowed with of-peak tickets? Cock-up, probably.

[ChrisB]

My understanding is that all TfL^» (Transport for London - about) trains to Reading are charged off-peak in the evening 'peak'

[Marlburian]

As are the remaining GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) stopping services that take around an hour to get from Paddington to Reading.

Marlburian

[grahame]

As a widening of this topic, "anytime" and "off-peak" is a mess ...

Both my pictures.   The one on the right is an "off peak" train, with lower priced tickets that (as I understand it) were offered to encourage people to travel at times when trains weren't so crowded.   "Off peak" tickets are not valid on the train on the left - customers are required to pay the premium "anytime" fares to travel on it.

Is a fair (fare?) definition these days that an "off peak" train is one which runs at a time that customers are price sensitive to the extent they'll be put off by being asked to pay the "anytime" fare,  with a bit of 'this is what we're regulated to do' on the side?

The Rail Delivery Group did a big consultation excercise on updating fare the fare structure - lots of good questions asked, but to my knowledge no recommendations published as their work became an input to "Williams", looking even wider.  Williams should have reported by now, but no recommendations published yet as their work has been paused as we looked even wider and had an election.   Is it too much to hope that in this widening and widening again, the case for fare revision won't slip off the radar,  and be conveniently sidelined as the new government moves forward in its particular direction ... bypassing the intent of the likes of Theresa May, Chris Grayling and Phillip Hammond when they instigated this work.

While capacity remains in excess of demand in the peak (which it should for a year or two bearing in mind how much extra capacity has just been provided), any "Fat Controller" won't be interested in spreading load off peak fare trains which have space onto lower fare trains that also have the space - in fact, he won't want it to happen because it will hurt the bottom line.

[stuving]

As are the remaining GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) stopping services that take around an hour to get from Paddington to Reading.

Marlburian

There are no GWR stoppers in the peak - though there are some first-stop-Slough trains after 17:50 that are allowed and almost as slow (48 minutes).

The restriction code for off-peak singles and day returns (J9) still has a list (text) of all the trains not allowed, and blocked windows defined for OJPs^▸ (Online Journey Planner) to use. It has been updated for the new timetable, and those blocks are now "on GWR" instead of "on any TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company)" which should take all the TfL^» (Transport for London - about) ones out of the picture. It also covers them for getting the timing of the windows wrong (which they have).

The TVB ranger uses restriction code T3, which has a similar list of disallowed trains - but not identical. It looks like it's a revision out of date, so leaves a few trains allowed that have now been placed on the banned list. I can't see any unpublished restrictions on BRFares - but they must exist. In both cases these can be out of sync with the text, and then the OJP would be.

The intent seems to be that all long-distance trains are banned, all TfL stoppers are not, and with the semifasts it's a matter of some are and some aren't. The choice doesn't look very logical, but perhaps it wouldn't if they had just picked the ones that ran full up to last week to block. 

[Marlburian]

As are the remaining GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) stopping services that take around an hour to get from Paddington to Reading.

Marlburian

There are no GWR stoppers in the peak - though there are some first-stop-Slough trains after 17:50 that are allowed and almost as slow (48 minutes).

Ah, you're correct of course. I'm still struggling to work out the overall implications for me, but at the moment I'm thankful that earlier this year my number of off-peak visits to London reduced from about 16  a year to six. But I've always been an Eeeyore, and things seldom turn out as badly as I'd feared.

[onthecushions]

It would have helped of course if GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) put the leaflet I referenced, as a page on their website in an easily accessible place. (I could not find it.)

Perhaps the GWR people who officially read this could take this up with the designer.

Websites should inform as well as persuade and entertain.

OTC

[stuving]

It would have helped of course if GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) put the leaflet I referenced, as a page on their website in an easily accessible place. (I could not find it.)

Perhaps the GWR people who officially read this could take this up with the designer.

Websites should inform as well as persuade and entertain.

OTC

I think in the past that leaflet was only available at Reading and nearby stations, since the list was different for travel to other stations. Now that the same information is in two of the printed timetables, I wasn't expecting that leaflet to still be produced, so I'm surprised to hear you've got one.

The changes in off-peak times that are producing all the screaming and shouting and rioting in the streets of places like Bedwyn are part of this move towards more uniform rules, but I think there are still significant differences (even without considering via-London routes).

[Robin Summerhill]

The changes in off-peak times that are producing all the screaming and shouting and rioting in the streets of places like Bedwyn are part of this move towards more uniform rules, but I think there are still significant differences (even without considering via-London routes).

In places like Bedwyn they'd consider it rioting in the street if Father Ted was standing outside the station with a placard saying "Careful now" - but I take your point.

But it is examples like this that find me in no great hurry to see the recommendations of Williams. There is an old saying "Better the Devil you know" and another "Be careful what you wish for."

[Jonathan H]

My understanding is that all TfL^» (Transport for London - about) trains to Reading are charged off-peak in the evening 'peak'

Until TfL start charging their own fares alongside the existing ones.  Then, 1600 to 1900 westbound will be charged at peak Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) / Contactless rates but off peak 'paper' fares.

[stuving]

My understanding is that all TfL^» (Transport for London - about) trains to Reading are charged off-peak in the evening 'peak'

Until TfL start charging their own fares alongside the existing ones.  Then, 1600 to 1900 westbound will be charged at peak Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) / Contactless rates but off peak 'paper' fares.

That's what I understand from TfL's words so far - though I've not seen anything clear and specific on this. For example, if TfL's PAYG^▸ (Pay as you go) fares for travel outside their zones match the existing GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) ones, will they be charging more than GWR in the evening peak? Will that count as an anytime fare and allow you to use a fast train?

It is, after all, the payment method that sets the fare, not the train - and while GWR have an established system of different trains for off-peak and anytime, TfL don't and have said their fares will be valid on the "adjacent" GWR services (whatever that means).

Note that this issue hasn't arisen before, even though GWR operate TfL pricing out to West Drayton, since fast trains don't stop at any of these stations. Also, the paper tickets (sold by GWR until TfL took over the stations) served the same purpose as TfL paper tickets, and were similarly a lot more expensive than peak PAYG and not available as off-peak. None of which applies further out.

[CyclingSid]

I believe I saw a copy of the new Off-peak leaflet on the counter at Reading yesterday. They still haven't managed to put out all the new timetable leaflets.

[Adelante_CCT]

It has been updated for the new timetable, and those blocks are now "on GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway)" instead of "on any TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company)" which should take all the TfL^» (Transport for London - about) ones out of the picture.

Except it hasn't, the OJPs^▸ (Online Journey Planner) are only offering the 17:13/18:13/19:13 tfl services and the 17:42/18:42 GWR services when looking at off peak services back to the Reading area despite what restrictions C7 / P7 / J9 etc say