Bignosemac's GWR trip November 2019 *NOW ON HOLD*

[whole diary]

[JayMac]

So sorry to hear that, and hope that you soon recover. (or that the other party recover if the issue is not your own health)

It is myself.

I remain hopeful of getting this trip in before the new timetable starts. Diagnosis and treatment will inform that.

[JayMac]

The written text for restriction code XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) has been updated. It is also now better formatted. I decided to post this topic on a public board, and I strongly suspect GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway)'s Fares Implementation Team (one member in particular who I don't see eye to eye with due to his customer unfriendly actions...) read this thread as well as my tweets.

Isn't it amazing how quickly an error that potentially costs GWR revenue (no matter how little the loss) is fixed? Contrast that with the multitude examples day in, day out, where passengers are overcharged due to fares system errors.

https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/xc

[stuving]

The written text for restriction code XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) has been updated. It is also now better formatted. I decided to post this topic on a public board, and I strongly suspect GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway)'s Fares Implementation Team (one member in particular who I don't see eye to eye with due to his customer unfriendly actions...) read this thread as well as my tweets.

Isn't it amazing how quickly an error that potentially costs GWR revenue (no matter how little the loss) is fixed? Contrast that with the multitude examples day in, day out, where passengers are overcharged due to fares system errors.

https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/xc

I would have thought the failure to update was an oversight, perhaps due to starting to think the published code is now not very important. So the level of publicity may have prompted the quick reaction. They may also have feared, for the same reason, that any dispute over this was just a bit too likely to end up in an unwinnable court case.

But the effect isn't all one way - many of the times have shifted forwards (to match the data feed). Pewset, for example, was 10:30 and is now 9:30, which makes 1A77 available on super off-peak. I did in fact test PEW-PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) this morning, to make sure that the code for an SSS was XC and that the OJP^▸ (Online Journey Planner) allowed it on 1A77 at 10:18. It did, despite the text still saying 10:30 start and the same train being disallowed at other stops. So (if this horse isn't quite dead enough already) the OJP does just apply the times in the data feed and the unpublished data as BRFares says:

To determine whether a journey is permitted, the time restrictions shown below are applied to:
    The origin and destination of the journey
    All locations where a passenger changes trains during a journey
    The final destination of all trains travelled on during a journey
    (whether or not the passenger is travelling to that final destination)

Oh, and I see that Ivybridge's errant semicolon has survived.

[JayMac]

In looking through the published information (and that which is nominally 'staff only'), I've found other errors with restriction codes that favour the passenger.

One could prove useful for my rearranged trip.

Sorry to the GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) Fares Implementation Team who aren't very good at their job (my personal opinion). I'm not helping you out further by posting the details publicly.

[broadgage]

In my view, when anomalies or mistakes in published fare information favour the passenger, then they should be honoured, not forever of course but until the next timetable change AFTER THE CORRECTION at least.

The only exception should be when the error or anomaly is so gross that a "reasonable person" should realise that it is mistake.

Paddington to Penzance, first class for 88p is clearly a mistake.
An off peak ticket stated to be valid on a train at 09-42 is NOT a clear mistake and should be honoured.

[Celestial]

What I find a bit worrying is that the restriction wordings can be changed at any time, and there is no audit trail of when they were changed. So I can buy a ticket on one day, relying on the then current wording, and find that by the time I have travelled the restriction means that my ticket is no longer valid.

Unless I took a print out of the previous wording (which let's face it most people won't do), there's no evidence to disprove the railway company's version of events.

[grahame]

What I find a bit worrying is that the restriction wordings can be changed at any time, and there is no audit trail of when they were changed. So I can buy a ticket on one day, relying on the then current wording, and find that by the time I have travelled the restriction means that my ticket is no longer valid.

I would be pretty sure that if you purchased a ticket for travel at a later date, based on reading conditions which tell you it is valid on the train you intend to take, and the condition is subsequently changed, then you have every legal right to travel on the train with that ticket as the conditions were when you bought it.  A poor show for any company to sell you a product, take your money, then change the spec before you get the product or service in such a way that it's no longer what you require. I suspect, however, that there are very few super off peak Castle Cary to London tickets already purchased for the 09:42 with people still to use them. 

The grey area (if you like to call it that) is for people who - like our member here, I believe, have researched and decided to buy a product - and one that was stated to be available until and including Friday 13th December.  But then to find (or not find until they get stopped on the day) that the product was changed, after they researched it for their chosen day but before they actually bought the ticket, in such a way it was no longer suitable for them.   Legally, I suspect the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) can change the conditions for new sales at any time, though I suspect that there may be franchise and other contractual elements in place to stop them changing fares of which trains are in which fare brackets without notice.

Unless I took a print out of the previous wording (which let's face it most people won't do), there's no evidence to disprove the railway company's version of events.

Indeed - though I don't think there's anyone from GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) who's argued in the current case that the super off peak fare start time from Castle Cary was never before the 09:42 departure;  in any case, we do have evidence here on the forum in this case.


I do find it surprising that the fare condition was changed mid-timetable to correct what I suspect was an unintended loophole that had been created for super off peak tickets to be used from one particular station.  Yes, of course errors will come to light and need to be corrected, but for GWR to do so out of the normal cycle of fare updates, without (as far as I know) notice to or consultation with anyone ... and for an error which will flush out of the system on 16th December and become irrelevant anyway, seems churlish and likely to cost them more in customer relations than they'll gain in extra revenue.   I wonder why they simply didn't leave it alone for the next few weeks, when the issue goes away.

[Celestial]

The grey area is exactly my point grahame - there's nothing to stop GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) (or any TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company)) changing the conditions of a ticket at any point and anyone who's purchased a ticket in good faith will very likely not be able to prove that the conditions have been changed since they bought the ticket. 

[broadgage]

I have long felt that the present fares system is unduly complex and have previously suggested a means to hugely simply this.

My proposal may be SUMMARISED as
Only 3 different fares for a journey.
These fares to be colour coded, and timetable entries to be similarly coloured as to which tickets are valid on which train.
Most tickets to be valid via any reasonable route.
When a route restriction is required this MUST BE PRINTED ON THE TICKET.
The fare payable to be determined by how busy the train is expected to be, not by the time of booking.

I see no merit in the present system which allows discounted advance tickets on already overcrowded trains, but then charges punitively high fares for last minute travel on a lightly loaded train.

[paul7575]

...These fares to be colour coded, and timetable entries to be similarly coloured as to which tickets are valid on which train.

That colour coding idea could be misleading for connections into those services for origins/destinations that have different peak and offpeak times to the actual part of the service shown in the timetable...

(If that makes sense...)

Paul

[didcotdean]

Pure coincidence probably, but a service I've been using for some months in the evening peak period for which GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) (and some others) were selling itineraries with off-peak tickets has changed to peak only, at least to Didcot. I was never had my ticket checked on that train even though it usually goes from an unbarried platform.