Suggestion: IET internal modifications to make them more buggy friendly

[whole diary]

[IndustryInsider]

A tenth carriage with areas for wheelchairs, buggies and bikes is indeed a possibility, though a costly one and it does nothing to help the 5-car fleet.  I personally don’t think the sums for a 10-car extension will add up unless it’s entirely used for seating. 

My solution was designed to be quick and cheap to do.  You could probably complete the works on a given unit over a weekend.

[Celestial]

It would seem absurd to reduce proper seating to allow for buggies when these should be collapsed on board. Surely better that gateline staff have a supply of leaflets explaining that buggies should be collapsed and the reasons why (emphasising safety). When someone asks to be let through the wide gate with a buggy they are handed the leaflet and asked to read it.  On board staff would also have a few available too.

There could be posters at stations too and maybe in the vestibule areas.

I thought the original idea of young children not paying a fare was that if a seat was needed by another person they would have to sit on the parent's lap. Now we are suggesting taking seats out for them.

What next, specially strengthened seats to take suitcases and a smoking area on board for those that prefer not to obey some of the other rules?

[grahame]

How radical do you want to be?

Charge the same fare for all ages, with a single range of loyalty railcards - bronze, silver and gold available to everyone offering increased discounts at each level for an increased annual fee.  Revise Groupsave so that discounts can be compounded.

Charge a part fare for bicycles, dogs, buggies, wheelchairs, heavy luggage, owls, surfboards, etc. Whether a flat fare or a proportion of the ticket - to be decides.  Whether loyalty discounts apply on these extras, goodness knows.

Fixed fee for seat reservations, but with a guarantee of a seat.

Your economics for extra carriages and what they should take may start to look better, and I'm sure those of us who from time to time take (in my case) dogs, owls and heavy luggage would not mind paying a bit extra on the occasions we did, if compensated by a bit less on the occasions we didn't ... nor would we mind a small seat reservation fee for those occassions we especially want to be able to be sure of being seated.

I wonder if Williams will be this radical!

[Bmblbzzz]

Hats off to II for considering the matter.

As a pedantic quibble, but also to clarify a possible source of confusion, he talks of "buggies" but the diagram shows what I would call a "pram". Or a "baby carriage" if you want to be Transpondian. The term "buggy" to me suggests something smaller and for a toddler or older baby who is at least sitting up, if not walking. This isn't just a pedantic quibble – the crucial difference here is that a buggy folds, prams do not (or at least not without a deal of effort). Also, whereas the pram stage lasts maybe a year at most, the buggy stage lasts several years, so there are more buggies and due to the age, probably more travelling.

[IndustryInsider]

Thanks, and yes I chose that image for two reasons, firstly it indicated what space the largest item would take up, and secondly as a pictogram it worked much better than overhead views of pushchairs/buggies and I wanted to indicate the likely width so a side-on image wouldn’t have been as effective.

You could fit two small pushchairs in the available space if required.

I’m terms of ‘Why should we provide a space?’  Then I guess that comes down to whether you want to try and make journeys as rewarding and stress free as possible.  Insisting on folding away things takes time and can cause congestion as people behind try to get on.  Other people just ignore leaflets and guidance and will continue to leave them unfolded and abandoned in various other places on the train that causes other issues.

[Richard Fairhurst]

I can see the merit of this suggestion, the only real drawback IMHO^▸ (in my humble opinion) is that it panders to those who refuse to fold buggies and thereby occupy excessive space.

Generally my experience is that sleeping children in buggies object quite vociferously to being folded up. My experience is also that other passengers don’t particularly welcome vociferous children...

II, this is an excellent suggestion. Providing freeform luggage space like this would improve travel for everyone with buggies, suitcases and bikes. These seats are inevitably only used on very busy services in any case.

[mjray]

A bit OTT^▸ (Open Train Times website) to have a whole coach fitted out thus, but perhaps about one quarter or one third of a coach might be reasonable, it would be what we used to call the guard's van or luggage van, but would need re branding these days.
"multi functional facility" or some such.

Belgium's SNCB/NMBS calls them "multi-functional areas" and I've found it to be generally one carriage of 10 (or the lower deck of a shorter double-decker, or half a carriage of a shorter single-decker). Some double-deckers have low-level exit doors but they can only be opened by the guard. See https://cheeseweb.eu/2015/06/bike-belgian-trains-stepbystep-guide/ although the Liege-Lux service now has carriages with an open area too.

The Netherlands's NS seemed to have thirds of some coaches as open spaces but labels them variously as luggage or 4-bike spaces (despite 6 fitting easily and 8 is possible on most with careful stacking, sometimes more, all with none blocking gangways), causing needless conflict and delay if you've a rules-enforcing guard and a different mix of luggage/bikes/passengers to what the builders expected.

[broadgage]

Generally my experience is that sleeping children in buggies object quite vociferously to being folded up. My experience is also that other passengers don’t particularly welcome vociferous children...

II, this is an excellent suggestion. Providing freeform luggage space like this would improve travel for everyone with buggies, suitcases and bikes. These seats are inevitably only used on very busy services in any case.

AFAIK^▸ (as far as I know), the child, sleeping or otherwise is meant to be removed BEFORE folding the buggy. I would expect the child to object vociferously if folded up with the buggy. Some makes of buggy have instructions that read "WARNING, REMOVE CHILD BEFORE FOLDING"
Most children do not come with instructions.

[Richard Fairhurst]

The problem is that waking the child also sets off the vociferous chain of events!

[Bmblbzzz]

Very small children IME^▸ (in my experience) have a natural inclinometer. They can fall asleep in any position but once asleep, will wake and initiate the aforementioned vociferous chain of events the instant they are laid on a horizontal surface. If by chance they happen to fall asleep in a horizontal position, they will wake the instant they are are raised or lowered, no matter how gently, with the same effects.

[eightonedee]

Back to II's initial suggestion  it seems sensible to me.

If he puts in an order for tip up seats, can he order a few extra please so they can be installed in the two substantial wheelchair spaces in the centre coaches of "refurbished" Turbos, so a few more folk can sit down when these spaces are not in use (dare I say, as is usually the case) for wheelchairs?

[MVR S&T]

Having all these spaces for wheelchairs, buggys, priority seats on the train is all very well, but getting from the platform on to and out of the train, is more of an issue. remember any of us may need a wheelchair/pram one day..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-49434911

[JayMac]

Having all these spaces for wheelchairs, buggys, priority seats on the train is all very well, but getting from the platform on to and out of the train, is more of an issue. remember any of us may need a wheelchair/pram one day..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-49434911

On that point, I've started a dedicated topic about this latest TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) failing to provide for a disabled traveller:
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=22116.0

[Bmblbzzz]

Having all these spaces for wheelchairs, buggys, priority seats on the train is all very well, but getting from the platform on to and out of the train, is more of an issue. remember any of us may need a wheelchair/pram one day..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-49434911

One at each end of life, often!

[Oxonhutch]

I think I read it on these boards first - we are all born disabled.

I made my pram into the most exciting trolley. The fun I had with that ...