Toilets on local trains - Liverpool discussion

[whole diary]

[grahame]

From the Liverpool Echo

Passenger and Train Operator responses to lack of toilets on new trains.

A look inside MerseyRail's new trains

Passengers travelling on the new Merseyrail fleets will need to hold their bladders - because none of the carriages will have a loo.

It's long been a mystery why Merseyrail trains don't have toilets, especially as some journeys take over 40 minutes.

Kate Lynch was travelling from Moorfields to Formby at 9.55pm on May 26.

Five minutes into the journey she reported seeing a passenger vomiting on the floor.

She said: "On the train home from town. One fella fully heaving all over the floor, another is blowing snot out his nose and wiping it on the seats and walls."

Another commuter wrote on Twitter: "My main complaint about the train (if you're doing Merseyrail to Chester) is there's no toilet. Hard work after an all day sesh..."

One annoyed commuter tweeted: "What would someone with IBS^▸ (Intermediate Block Signal) do if they needed to go, but they were on the Merseyrail Chester to Liverpool?"

The ECHO decided to raise the issue with Merseytravel , who are responsible for coordinating the Liverpool City Region transport network and are purchasing new trains for the Merseyrail network.

A spokesperson said:"In common with other similar metro rail systems – like the Underground in London and the Metro on Tyneside – trains on the Merseyrail network don’t have toilets on board.

"This is because of how regular services are, the short average journey times – only around 20 minutes – and regular station stops every 2-3 minutes.

"The majority of Merseyrail stations do offer bathroom facilities for all customers and this won’t change

"Without onboard toilet facilities, Merseyrail network trains are also able to carry more passengers, which is particularly important at peak travel times.

"When we were designing the new trains we worked closely with a panel of local people to make sure they were built to meet their needs.

"This process revealed that demand for toilet facilities was very low, especially when compared to other features we’ve worked to provide, like air conditioning, free Wi-Fi, more spacious carriages and level access for wheelchair users, bikes and buggies."

[eightf48544]

Same with Taplow 387s with loos being replaced by 345s without from Shenfield to Reading!

[broadgage]

And the new DC^▸ (Direct Current) EMUs^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit) serving south east London also have no toilets, progress of course but still regrettable.

The stranding incident at Lewisham demonstrated the desirability of toilets even on short journeys. One needs to consider not just the planned journey time, but also delays.

[Reginald25]

To be fair, when I commuted  from SE London in the 60s, we didn't have such facilities, and didn't expect them. i doubt if the significant delays these days are much worse than the situation then. On a short commuter service I'd rather have another row of seats.

[Robin Summerhill]

Kate Lynch was travelling from Moorfields to Formby at 9.55pm on May 26.

Five minutes into the journey she reported seeing a passenger vomiting on the floor.

She said: "On the train home from town. One fella fully heaving all over the floor, another is blowing snot out his nose and wiping it on the seats and walls."

Hmmm...

Vomiting is usually an involuntary action and often comes without warning, so I'm not sure that having toilets on Merseyrail services would be a solution. That stuff would still be coming up if the toilet was occupied, and we no longer even have the emergency solution of heading for a droplight any more.

As regards the other aspect of antisocial behaviour, I'm not sure that a toilet is going to help much with that either.

The timing of all this, 5 minutes into a journey starting at 2155. might be significant, especially if the puker had had a skinful.

In fact this tale might be telling us more about deficiencies in certain Liverpudlians than it is telling us about deficiencies in Merseyrail's facilities...

[broadgage]

To be fair, when I commuted  from SE London in the 60s, we didn't have such facilities, and didn't expect them. i doubt if the significant delays these days are much worse than the situation then. On a short commuter service I'd rather have another row of seats.

I also remember suburban commuter services without toilets being generally satisfactory, however I do not feel that todays conditions are comparable.
Firstly, almost all stations then had toilets, so passengers only had to be able to wait for the actual train journey. These days a 30 minute train journey might be preceded by a 15 minute wait for a bus to the station, a 30 minute bus ride and then a 30 minute wait for the train. Much longer without relief than is suggested by the train timings. In the old days, the passenger could have used the station toilet  shortly before departure.

Secondly, modern trains with locked doors are a decided drawback in case of prolonged delay. Back in the old days of slam door trains, men at least could and did wee out of an open door. And of course people could alight and relieve themselves on the trackside. Far preferable to todays policy of "keep them on the trains no matter what" and if some unfortunates are forced to soil themselves, well that is just one of those things.

Finally it seems to me that large scale delays ARE increasing. Modern trains seem more complex and less reliable.
I do not recall a DC^▸ (Direct Current) slam door suburban unit EVER breaking down. And of course back in the old days a failed train was easily hauled or propelled out of the way, we now have a rule that each batch of new trains must be incompatible with the existing fleet.
And of course these days we have large scale signal failures that close major London termini. Those hoping to LEAVE the London terminal can use the station facilities. But about those delayed for hours on inbound trains?

[Reginald25]

All good points Broadgauge. Things have certainly changed in the last 50 years!

[IndustryInsider]

All good points Broadgauge. Things have certainly changed in the last 50 years!

I think it’s probably a good thing that men can no longer wee out of an open door.  Not exactly a pleasant site and a very sexist policy.   

[broadgage]

All good points Broadgauge. Things have certainly changed in the last 50 years!

I think it’s probably a good thing that men can no longer wee out of an open door.  Not exactly a pleasant sight and a very sexist policy.   

Hardly the correct way to proceed under any normal circumstances, but arguably preferable to p!ssing on the floor and wetting oneself as many did in the Lewisham fiasco.
I have only done it once ! Any offence caused is regretted, but better out of the door than inside the train. (local train delayed by hours due to a bomb alert)

[grahame]

Hardly the correct way to proceed under any normal circumstances, but arguably preferable to p!ssing on the floor and wetting oneself as many did in the Lewisham fiasco.

But beware the third rail ... could be a nasty way to go.

[IndustryInsider]

Looking at more modern solutions, perhaps emergency inflatable toilets, such as those you can get for camping, could be provided on trains without loos, stored with the other emergency equipment?  A private area on the train (perhaps in the inactive cab) could then be used as an emergency facility by both men and women offering a degree of privacy and a safe environment?
 

[broadgage]

Looking at more modern solutions, perhaps emergency inflatable toilets, such as those you can get for camping, could be provided on trains without loos, stored with the other emergency equipment?  A private area on the train (perhaps in the inactive cab) could then be used as an emergency facility by both men and women offering a degree of privacy and a safe environment?
 

Most of these contrivances consist ONLY of an inflatable or folding tent, not any container for the waste. An Elsan closet or equivalent would be needed in addition. These have a very limited capacity and soon become overfull if used by a crowd.

[IndustryInsider]

If you had a couple of them onboard, the ones with containers, like this one https://www.quakekare.com/portable-folding-toilet-p-34 wouldn’t that probably be enough, even in Lewisham style events?  After all, only a small percentage on the train were unable to wait.  Just an idea as retrofitting all trains is not an option.

[stuving]

If you had a couple of them onboard, the ones with containers, like this one https://www.quakekare.com/portable-folding-toilet-p-34 wouldn’t that probably be enough, even in Lewisham style events?  After all, only a small percentage on the train were unable to wait.  Just an idea as retrofitting all trains is not an option.

The RAIB^▸ (Rail Accident Investigation Branch) report on Lewisham did mention emergency toilets, and the ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies See - here)/NR^» (Network Rail - home page) guidance note "Meeting the Needs of Passengers when Trains are Stranded" has a bit more on that. It has more to say about how to keep modern toilets at least usable when electricity, water, or retention tank space runs out. A further point how to make such emergency supplies or manual override available in DOO^▸ (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) trains, and if they are set up for passenger use in emergencies how they are protected from "inappropriate use" for years before being needed.

[broadgage]

Hardly the correct way to proceed under any normal circumstances, but arguably preferable to p!ssing on the floor and wetting oneself as many did in the Lewisham fiasco.

But beware the third rail ... could be a nasty way to go.

This is suspected to be an urban myth, though I would not wish to try it just in case. Only if the urine formed a solid stream could the current be conducted into the person. In practice the liquid breaks up into droplets with insulating air gaps between.
As an example, it is safe to stand under high voltage overhead lines (national grid or railway equipment) in the heaviest of rain storms due to the gaps between rain drops.
To direct a solid jet of water at such equipment from firefighting or irrigation equipment would be unwise.