SWT v Southern v FGW - a journey of comparison

[whole diary]

[grahame]

Coming back from Portsmouth yesterday, and arriving at "Harbour" just after the 16:22 had gone, I decided to hop along the coast using other operator's trains to SOuthampton to get a bit more of a contrasting view - to see if we're REALLY being fair to FGW^▸ (First Great Western) in terms of slamming them for overcrowding, and lack of appropriate services.

South West Trains

Left Portsmouth Harbour on the 16:54 to Basingstoke - a 4 car class 450.  Warm, comfortable, and very sparse in terms of the number of passengers (estimate - 10% to 20% of seats occupied at some point).  Clean, modern, excellent acceleration.  Changed at Fareham, where its route diverged from the route that I was taking.

Another South West Trains service from Portsmouth Harbour (to Fareham), 8 coaches, was less that 10 minutes behind.  It teminated at Fareham - I saw it arrive, and counted just 4 passengers detraining.


The 17:01 from Portsmouth Harbour, terminating at Fareham

Southern

Another 4 car electric train, through from Victoria. On time. Again, warm and comfortable and with a very low occupancy rate, again somewhere in the 10% to 20% of seats taken.  Not quite so clean in terms of a few bits of junk on seats as would be expected towards the end of a long run.   The use of electric trains on this section shown to be really good because of the fast accessleration from the (two) stops on this service and all the slowings for junctions and tight corners.


Inside the Southern Victoria to Southampron service

First Great Westerm

A 2 car diesel train of class 150.  Like the Southern and South West trains, this service was on time but in comparison to them it was noisy, smelly, and dirty. I joined the service at Southampton, from where every seat was taken and quite a lot of people were standing - but it wasn't to the uncomfortable / denied boarding levels.

Passengers remained standing from Romsey to Salisbury, but from that point on I think everyone got a seat, all be it the extra tipup seats in the vestibules were still in use which (perhaps) is not ideal for people making longer distance journeys.


Joining the FGW service at Southampton Central

Note

It was a cold and blustery Easter Saturday with snow flurries which probably reduced the number of sightseers and day trippers from a normal bank holiday. Bath rugby were at home, there was a Cardiff / Bristol match and I understand there were events at the Millenium Stadium.  In contrast, Portmouth were away but I think Southampton may have been at home, not sure who to.

[Conner]

I have travelled on Southern from Victoria-Bognor before and there trains are brilliant, they are clean comfortable and have air conditioning.
SWT^▸ (South West Trains) are the best operator between London and Exeter IMO^▸ (in my opinion), there trains are far more comfortable and usually just as long as a HST^▸ (High Speed Train) and pretty empty.
I also had the bad experience of a busy 150 yesterday, and had to sit on a tip up seat in the vestibule for 1 1/2 hours with the other half of the vestibule filled with luggage and two other people sitting on bags. But what really anoied me was under 5's sitting on seats while paying customers stood. The conductor didn't fancy the train so didn't do a ticket check till an hour in, St.Austell. Until then he hid in the rear cab. It was a pretty bad experience.

[Graz]

Many thanks for that Graham, I'm always really interested to see the comparison in trains and usage on other parts of the network.

I must say I'm really surprised at the low passenger numbers on SWT^▸ (South West Trains) services from PM Harbour, but is it always like this? 8 coaches and 4 people leaving seems like such a waste of good carriages. What's that, 1/2 a person per coach!?

I wonder whether SWT could put this train to better use on a certain notoriously overloaded part of the network (Southampton/Salisbury - Westbury - Bristol). More revenue, happier passengers, relief for FGW^▸ (First Great Western)...

[Conner]

I wonder whether SWT^▸ (South West Trains) could put this train to better use on a certain notoriously overloaded part of the network (Southampton/Salisbury - Westbury - Bristol). More revenue, happier passengers, relief for FGW^▸ (First Great Western)...

They can't as Grahame saw a Class 450 Electric Multiple Unit.

[Graz]

Was the 8 coach one a class 450 as well?

If so, it makes me wish the Southampton-Bristol route was 'electrified'...

[dog box]

I have travelled on Southern from Victoria-Bognor before and there trains are brilliant, they are clean comfortable and have air conditioning.
SWT^▸ (South West Trains) are the best operator between London and Exeter IMO^▸ (in my opinion), there trains are far more comfortable and usually just as long as a HST^▸ (High Speed Train) and pretty empty.
I also had the bad experience of a busy 150 yesterday, and had to sit on a tip up seat in the vestibule for 1 1/2 hours with the other half of the vestibule filled with luggage and two other people sitting on bags. But what really anoied me was under 5's sitting on seats while paying customers stood. The conductor didn't fancy the train so didn't do a ticket check till an hour in, St.Austell. Until then he hid in the rear cab. It was a pretty bad experience.

Since when has a 6 car 159 been as long as a 2 and 8 HST set, also you will find that the 159 is virtually identical to an Fgw 158 set both being the product of Wabatec.
Incidentally the 159s have the on board customer info screens but i have yet to see them work

[swlines]

dog box, I have posted numerous times elsewhere on this forum that the customer information displays present on the class 159 and 158 fleet that SWT^▸ (South West Trains) have is yet to be put into operation. It does work, as I've seen them in action myself, and I've been sent pictures of the screens showing "SWT LUVS YOU" .

For comment, a blue SWT service is a class 450 EMU^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit). A 450 is 4 coaches long - designed for outer suburban work and SWT have 127 of them, of which 1 is currently out of service due to crash damage. 450047 - 450070 are being converted to high density units for use on the Hounslow loop, Windsor lines and some other selected services.

A red SWT train is a class 455 EMU. A 455 is 4 coaches long - designed for inner suburban work and SWT have 91 of them.

A white SWT train ... there are several in this livery. . A 5 coach unit is a class 444 EMU, primarily used nowadays for London to Weymouth services having replaced the class 442 fleet. A 4 coach unit is a class 458 EMU - used on the London to Reading route. A 3 coach unit is a class 159, on the WoE. And a 2 coach unit is a class 158.

Also the refurbishment on the class 159 and 158 SWT fleets is vastly different to the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) 158 refurbishment IMHO^▸ (in my humble opinion), the seats are certainly far better on a SWT refurb - and that's a key thing to note.

[Lee]

Many thanks for that Graham, I'm always really interested to see the comparison in trains and usage on other parts of the network.

I must say I'm really surprised at the low passenger numbers on SWT^▸ (South West Trains) services from PM Harbour, but is it always like this? 8 coaches and 4 people leaving seems like such a waste of good carriages. What's that, 1/2 a person per coach!?

I think my first observation is that no, it isnt always like this, and it can be a lot busier.

Secondly, the South Western Franchise was specified on the following basis :

With regards to future usage, the Network Rail Route Utilisation Strategy (RUS^▸ (Route Utilisation Strategy)) assumed a growth of 20 per cent. over 10 years. The Department, in letting the new South Western Franchise, asked bidders to develop innovative means to manage the expected increase in capacity.

In other words, the "spare" capacity takes into account what is thought to be required for the period of the SWT franchise, not just the capacity that is required now.

This is in stark contrast to what happened with the Greater Western Franchise.

[Conner]

I have travelled on Southern from Victoria-Bognor before and there trains are brilliant, they are clean comfortable and have air conditioning.
SWT^▸ (South West Trains) are the best operator between London and Exeter IMO^▸ (in my opinion), there trains are far more comfortable and usually just as long as a HST^▸ (High Speed Train) and pretty empty.
I also had the bad experience of a busy 150 yesterday, and had to sit on a tip up seat in the vestibule for 1 1/2 hours with the other half of the vestibule filled with luggage and two other people sitting on bags. But what really anoied me was under 5's sitting on seats while paying customers stood. The conductor didn't fancy the train so didn't do a ticket check till an hour in, St.Austell. Until then he hid in the rear cab. It was a pretty bad experience.

Since when has a 6 car 159 been as long as a 2 and 8 HST set, also you will find that the 159 is virtually identical to an Fgw 158 set both being the product of Wabatec.
Incidentally the 159s have the on board customer info screens but i have yet to see them work

When there 9-car between Salisbury and Waterloo.

[grahame]

I must say I'm really surprised at the low passenger numbers on SWT^▸ (South West Trains) services from PM Harbour, but is it always like this? 8 coaches and 4 people leaving seems like such a waste of good carriages. What's that, 1/2 a person per coach!?

Yes - but to be fair it was the least crowded train I saw all day, and at the tail end of its route.   The 15 - 20% loading I've quoted elsewhere was more the average.

Taking Lee's later comment about 20% growth - if you take 15% loading and grow it compound at 20% per annum for 9 years, you get 78% loading in the 10th year, so in that basis it looks like the SWT service levels / capacities are well suited for the period ahead.

Were a similar 20% growth applied to the next 8 years on FGW^▸ (First Great Western), currently around 95% capacity or higher from yesterday's snapshot, you would see over 400% loading by the end of the franchise.  Of course, it's physically impossible to have three people standing for each seat taken, so that won't happen.   

The Franschise was let, though,  on a growth rate forecast or around 1% to 2%, I believe. On that basis a 95% loading will still be a loading of only around 110% by the end of the franchise.  However, evidence points to that forecast being dramatically outstripped ... so that FGW services, even with 3 car hourly Cardiff - Portsmouth, won't be adequate through the franchise period; you need something more like 4 coaches every half hour on all sections of the route if the SWT level of growth is reached (and I think it could be with many towns such as Trowbridge, Westbury, Warmisnter and Melksham all slated for huge growth under the Regional Spatial Strategy, and the local papers already full of complains about the A36 and A350 ovecrowded accident blackspotted roads)

Here's a thought to how that can be dealt with in coming years ... making best capacity use, best use of the electric trains from Portsmouth to Southampton.

* An Hourly Portsmouth - Cardiff (4 car)
* An Hourly Southampton - Swindon, giving a 30 minutes Southampton - Trowbridge (operator could be FGW or SWT - possible extension of the Romsey - Salisbury service?) (2 car)
* An Hourly Frome - Bristol and beyond, giving 30 minute Westbury - North Bristol (4 car)

Alternate Westbury to Bristol trains - 2 cars from Weymouth, and connecting across platform at Westbury with the Southampton - Swindon service.

Connection at Southampton from the Southern train from Victoria into the Swindon train, giving connections from East of Portsmouth Island.

[devon_metro]

Overkill on capacity there me thinks Graham!

Anyhow, it seems the stock is there, but not utilised correctly. 158798 on the Gloucester - Weymouth yesterday which was busy ish but plenty of seats, meanwhile the dreaded 1630 CDF^» (Cardiff - next trains)-PMH lost many of its passengers at Trowbridge and I still had to wedge into a vestiable.

[grahame]

Overkill on capacity there me thinks Graham!

For a year or two, yes.  But with the same growth rate as was assumed within the SWT^▸ (South West Trains) franchise, this would lead to somewhere around 90% loading by the final (second option) end of the current FGW^▸ (First Great Western) franchise.  I got quite a shock when I worked out the numbers!

With the RSS^▸ (Regional Spatial Strategy) putting 50% growth into 6 SSCTs in the Wiltshire part of the area covered alone, and without the raising of the A36 / A350 all the way from Southampton to the M4 to a dual carriageway, and with petrol prices ever higher,  I would not be suprised if compound 20% growth turns out to be rather conservative.

To some extent I agree on stock utilisation - there do seem to be some "sillies" around still, but I don't know the full picture on most of them and I'm painfully aware that what looks like an absurdly empty working may not be such on the next leg, or there could be another reason.   For example, I understand (by email) that the SWT 8 car train I saw arriving in Farehame near-empty is near-full when Portsmouth are at home, and in any case it's simply making use of a Fratton to Northam depot move for passengers.

[vacman]

dog box, I have posted numerous times elsewhere on this forum that the customer information displays present on the class 159 and 158 fleet that SWT^▸ (South West Trains) have is yet to be put into operation. It does work, as I've seen them in action myself, and I've been sent pictures of the screens showing "SWT LUVS YOU" .

For comment, a blue SWT service is a class 450 EMU^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit). A 450 is 4 coaches long - designed for outer suburban work and SWT have 127 of them, of which 1 is currently out of service due to crash damage. 450047 - 450070 are being converted to high density units for use on the Hounslow loop, Windsor lines and some other selected services.

A red SWT train is a class 455 EMU. A 455 is 4 coaches long - designed for inner suburban work and SWT have 91 of them.

A white SWT train ... there are several in this livery. . A 5 coach unit is a class 444 EMU, primarily used nowadays for London to Weymouth services having replaced the class 442 fleet. A 4 coach unit is a class 458 EMU - used on the London to Reading route. A 3 coach unit is a class 159, on the WoE. And a 2 coach unit is a class 158.

Also the refurbishment on the class 159 and 158 SWT fleets is vastly different to the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) 158 refurbishment IMHO^▸ (in my humble opinion), the seats are certainly far better on a SWT refurb - and that's a key thing to note.

The seats in the majority of the FGW refurbed 158's are IDENTICAL in all but colour to the 159's, and therefore can be no better/worse, the interior colours of the FGW refurb is far more placid, using blue/purple which is calming, whereas SWT's is red which actually does the oposite.

[swlines]

I must have had dodgy seats whenever I've been on the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) refurbs then - felt nothing like the SWT^▸ (South West Trains) ones!!

I've really got used to the SWT red, but then you do when you travel with them a lot!

[Conner]

I must have had dodgy seats whenever I've been on the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) refurbs then - felt nothing like the SWT^▸ (South West Trains) ones!!

I've really got used to the SWT red, but then you do when you travel with them a lot!

Maybe you had Richmond's, they are really uncomfortable. I have only travvelled on a non Richmond one for a couple of mins and it was amazingly comfortable.
And the refurb's aren't identical. SWT have seat back table's, FGW don't yet.