Journey Swindon to Birmingham 07/05

[whole diary]

[Robin Summerhill]

I've just thought of something else that would count against an average fare based on a pence per mile fare structure.

The average that I calculated for Swindon to Birmingham by the various routes was £76.90, rather more than the £52.80 for the shortest route.

If there was no average fare that needed to be calculated because there is obviously only one route to take eg. Swindon to Stroud, Stroud to Cheltenham and Cheltenham to Brum, a savvy traveller could save £24.10 by - wait for it - splitting the ticket  Grin

My point remains, and is confirmed - it's meant to be a public transport service, not an initiative test.

Whilst I agree with you in principle, it is when we get down into the details that the problems become apparent. It is easy to say "there should be one fare irrespective of routeing," and when we are talking simple no-argument journeys such as Melksham to Chippenham or Stroud to Kemble then of course it can be done (and is generally being done now of course in terms of one fare for a particular type of ticket).

But as I showed in that little bit of research this could then throw up a new set of quirks and idiosyncrasies elsewhere. On an apparently simple journey from Swindon to Birmingham where there is normally no through service and multiple routes, how do you:

Set a one-size-fits-all fare that is fair to both the passengers and the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company)?
Make sure that you do not create new anomalies for others making broadly similar journeys?
Make sure that this one-size-fits-all fare does not make it possible for others to get a cheaper fare than they "ought" to be paying?

What happened to me this morning encapsulates the issue for me. I looked at some possible options for doing things differently to how they are done now and posted that research, with comments. I then went off to make a cup of coffee whilst still thinking about it and a new loophole suddenly sprang to mind.

As I said only a few days ago on this forum (but a different thread IIRC^▸ (if I recall/remember/read correctly)) there are similarities here with HMRC and accountants finding new loopholes after HMRC ave just closed the old ones. I found a new loophole that would have blown one of my options out of the water if it had been one recommended in the review, after about 5 minutes further thought. And it would have involved the reintroduction of split ticketing that the railway and passengers in general appear to want to see stopped.

We have only been looking at Swindon to Birmingham, but there are potentially thousands of examples all around the UK^▸ (United Kingdom). And each one of those examples would have to have a fare set in such a way that no loopholes existed, no new anomalies arose, and the prices charged represented a fair return to the TOCs who were charged with providing the services on which that ticket would be used.

 Brexit is a piece of cake by comparison 

[Robin Summerhill]

I always get concerned when no-one argues with me in circumstances like these - I don't know  if that means everyone is in agreement or you all think I'm an idiot and not worth responding to! 

Anyway, I thought I'd look more closely this morning into this, looking at the off peak fares and the potential options available:

Melksham to Bristol Parkway ... only available via Bath Spa, when routinely much faster via Swindon.

Melksham to Bristol Parkway £14.10 off peak return (36 miles via Trowbridge, 72 round trip. 19.58 pence per mile)

Swindon to Bristol Parkway £16.50 off peak return (34 miles, 68 round trip. 24.26 pence per mile)

You could of course buy an off peak return from Melksham to Swindon (£7.60) and another from SWI^» (Swindon - next trains) to BPW^» (Bristol Parkway - next trains) (16.50), total price £24.10 (57 miles, 114 round trip. 21.14 pence per mile.

I think we can now see why those tickets are routed via Bath rather than “any permitted.” The fare from Swindon to BPW is actually more expensive than Melksham to BPW, and buying two tickets to travel via Swindon (which nobody is stopping you doing) would still give a lower pence per mile rate than people travelling from Swindon to BPW only would get.

This seems to be yet another example of something that might seem absurd on a superficial level having much more logic behind it when one delves into the detail

[Celestial]

I think most people would understand that if you go the "long way round", even if faster, it's reasonable that you may have to pay more.  But, I think the information provided could be a lot better as to which routes you can go.

I discovered the Routing Guide yesterday and, goodness, it's complicated.  I'm still not sure I understand it, and it certainly isn't something you can expect people to use. So, what should there be?

I see that tickets now often have a restrictions reference on it that signposts to where you can find details online.  Why not also include (or have a separate reference) that tells you what routes you can use if necessary.  If you buy online it could be included in the email you get.  And booking office staff could be trained to ask if passengers need it if the journey route isn't obvious, and then it could be printed off there too.

Yes it would cost a lot to develop, but surely in this day and age it should be possible, and would give much better information to passengers. 

[stuving]

I see that tickets now often have a restrictions reference on it that signposts to where you can find details online.  Why not also include (or have a separate reference) that tells you what routes you can use if necessary.  If you buy online it could be included in the email you get.  And booking office staff could be trained to ask if passengers need it if the journey route isn't obvious, and then it could be printed off there too.

Yes it would cost a lot to develop, but surely in this day and age it should be possible, and would give much better information to passengers. 

That's why they say "use the (our) online journey planner". All the functions of routeing and selecting tickets have to be done there, and given that they interact it is probably he only practical place to do it. Of course it's driven by the ticket and routeing data feeds, not the text version, so it can't cope when that coding is wrong!

[Celestial]

How does that work if you want to take completely different routes on a return journey?  Say I want to travel from Newport to Glasgow, going out via Newcastle, but then want to visit my Auntie Flo' in Manchester on the way back.

Most people probably wouldn't imagine that one return ticket could cover both journeys, and as far as I can see, the journey planner doesn't give you the option of choosing different routes for the out and return journeys. 

Yes I know that is probably an extreme example, but there will be other, more plausible ones, I'm sure.

[Lee]

It's always frustrating when the journey planner goes against the Flo'...

[grahame]

How does that work if you want to take completely different routes on a return journey?  Say I want to travel from Newport to Glasgow, going out via Newcastle, but then want to visit my Auntie Flo' in Manchester on the way back.

Most people probably wouldn't imagine that one return ticket could cover both journeys, and as far as I can see, the journey planner doesn't give you the option of choosing different routes for the out and return journeys. 

Yes I know that is probably an extreme example, but there will be other, more plausible ones, I'm sure.

It's surprising how useful these things are ... and how difficult to research.  Even National Rail Telephone enquiries, where you speak to a real person, seem to have trouble with their own system.

Perhaps it's because of my work-pattern of a split week between two cities I have done quite a few of these ... your "our via Newcastle / back via Manchester" is nothing like as extreme as you might think!

I have found that planning two destinations it's good to start the week at the more distant place - then you can travel out within the one or two days of the outbound validity.  Break the return journey for multiple days if you need on the return journey when you have much longer validity.

[stuving]

How does that work if you want to take completely different routes on a return journey?  Say I want to travel from Newport to Glasgow, going out via Newcastle, but then want to visit my Auntie Flo' in Manchester on the way back.

Most people probably wouldn't imagine that one return ticket could cover both journeys, and as far as I can see, the journey planner doesn't give you the option of choosing different routes for the out and return journeys. 

Yes I know that is probably an extreme example, but there will be other, more plausible ones, I'm sure.

Obviously you can ask for extra options in the OJP^▸ (Online Journey Planner) - though the list might be quite long; for example it can't do step-free journeys or remove "walking legs". But with the current degree of complexity of the fares system, I reckon most users need the validity shown in a journey planner rather than having it explained in (many) words.

I usually find the OJP offers most routes on one or both directions, provided you turn off the "fastest trains only" option, and look over most of the day. However, it never offers all possible instances of every route, and why it misses the ones it does isn't obvious. If it did offer all routes and every time there would often be a lot more of them - which might be an issue in itself.

Specifying non-reciprocal returns is likely to be seen as too minority to be worth providing as an option. So I would check it by doing both routes as separate round trips - after all, the return ticket has no idea how you used its outward twin.

[froome]

Swindon to Worcester is valid via Bristol Parkway, and fares from Worcester to Birmingham are much cheaper than from Cheltenham, so you could consider making the journey that way.

However, your general point is correct, made by myself previously and also made by many others here, is that the route you wish to use should be a valid route. It is a nonsense that it is not.

[ChrisB]

I suspect the fare routing was created when Melksham-SWI^» (Swindon - next trains) had very few trains/day & has noot been looked at since the expansion of services to SWI. Suggest MUG take it up with GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) fare people.

[Lee]

Suggest MUG take it up with GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) fare people.

Oooh, grahame wont like being called that...

[grahame]

Suggest MUG take it up with GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) fare people.

Oooh, grahame wont like being called that...

Don't mind being called a mug - at times I can be  .   But really it's MRUG^» (Melksham Rail User Group - site) - Melksham Rail User Group that I think ChrisB is suggesting take it up.  And it gives me a chance to post an link to their web site which is at http://www.mrug.org.uk without being flagged up for advertising!

[ChrisB]

glad to have been of assistance there :-)