December 2019 timetable recast

[whole diary]

[Sixty3Closure]

Does this mean many of the fast services to/from Twyford are disappearing? Not sure extra stoppers is what is needed.

[eightonedee]

Thanks for that II

Quote from: ray951 on Today at 04:19:26 pm
Can I ask what, if anything, is happening to the Reading - Didcot - Oxford -Banbury stoppers?

Don't think anything is happening there I'm afraid.  There has been no talk of 769s being used between Reading and Oxford other than for ECS^▸ (Empty Coaching Stock) moves for stabling.  Hopefully all will be 3-car Turbos, but with Quote from: ray951 on Today at 04:19:26 pm
Can I ask what, if anything, is happening to the Reading - Didcot - Oxford -Banbury stoppers?

Don't think anything is happening there I'm afraid.  There has been no talk of 769s being used between Reading and Oxford other than for ECS moves for stabling.  Hopefully all will be 3-car Turbos, but with six daily 3-car diagrams and nine daily 2-car ones expected to be required for LTV^▸ (London [and] Thames Valley) services, there will still be more two cars than three in daily operation for the LTV services!

Obviously a disappointment bearing in mind that the franchise specification refers to a Reading - Oxford stopping service if I recall correctly.

Can you clarify please - does

six daily 3-car diagrams and nine daily 2-car ones

mean that there will be 15 Turbos covering all remaining diesel services in the Thames Valley, so that this number (plus presumably a few spares) will be retained in our part of the world and the rest released to go West?

Does this include those for the North Downs and Reading - Basingstoke?

And what will the 769's be used for? There are meant to be 19 on order, so they must be doing something more than North Downs duty.

Is there any suggestion that Reading - Didcot may move towards a more evenly spaced (better still, clockface) service?

And is there any commitment to making service calling patterns at interchange stations match better to assist those of us who change trains between two regular services?

Sorry to bombard you with questions, but these all have an impact on my regular travels.

[stuving]

Does this mean many of the fast services to/from Twyford are disappearing? Not sure extra stoppers is what is needed.

But there are no fast trains at Twyford now! Except in the peaks, that is, about which II said:

8-car Class 387 GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) services from Didcot to Paddington continue to operate off-peak at 2tph frequency, though some calls are removed between Reading and Paddington so that they only call at Twyford, Maidenhead, Slough, West Drayton, Hayes and Ealing Broadway.  Peak trains will operate as they do now running fast between Maidenhead or Slough to Paddington with some formed of 12-cars as now.

So I take it that the new pattern of semifasts is what is already in place, pretty much. Off-peak, half the stoppers stop less, so - provided the timetablers' spells all work - they should be a little quicker.

[IndustryInsider]

LONDON to BRISTOL:
...
There will also be, on weekdays only, two more additional services running via Bristol Parkway from roughly 9am-6pm (up direction) and 8am-4pm (down direction) which will be timed in 1h 20m or even slightly less between Bristol TM^‡(resolve) and Paddington, over 20 minutes quicker than today.  Just over 1 hour from Parkway to Paddington.  Though it is NOT expected that these services will start in December, but instead at some point during the validity of the timetable.

Will these also call at Swindon and Reading or are they going to run direct Parkway to Paddington?

They are just calling at Bristol Parkway.  'Superfast' is the label that is being used for these, and also the ones that run fast from Chippenham to Paddington in the peaks and the other peak services from South Wales that run direct from Bristol Parkway to Paddington.

Does this mean many of the fast services to/from Twyford are disappearing? Not sure extra stoppers is what is needed.

To confirm what Stuving said, it looks like the fast services from Twyford, Maidenhead and Slough will remain in a similar pattern in the peaks as they do now.  For example there is planned to be 17:21, 17:51, 18:21, 18:51 and 19:36 Paddington to Didcot services which will be first stop Maidenhead - and all formed of 12-cars, with a similar service the other way in the morning peak.

Can you clarify please - does

six daily 3-car diagrams and nine daily 2-car ones

mean that there will be 15 Turbos covering all remaining diesel services in the Thames Valley, so that this number (plus presumably a few spares) will be retained in our part of the world and the rest released to go West?

Does this include those for the North Downs and Reading - Basingstoke?

And what will the 769's be used for? There are meant to be 19 on order, so they must be doing something more than North Downs duty.

Is there any suggestion that Reading - Didcot may move towards a more evenly spaced (better still, clockface) service?

And is there any commitment to making service calling patterns at interchange stations match better to assist those of us who change trains between two regular services?

Fifteen daily Turbo diagrams to cover all LTV^▸ (London [and] Thames Valley) services (so probably around 17-18 units being retained in total for those diagrams).  They will cover West Ealing to Greenford, Slough to Windsor, Maidenhead to Bourne End/Marlow and Twyford to Reading duties, as well as Reading to Basingstoke, and Reading/Didcot to Oxford/Banbury stopping services.  That compares with 27 daily diagrams on 'West' services from a fleet in the early 30s, so Turbos will be predominantly based in the West - still leaves a gap in the total fleet size of 58 units though so not sure how they are being accounted for.

There are expected to be 8 Class 769 daily diagrams, which will be the North Downs services.  There are plans to also use them on some of the Thames Valley branches, though perhaps they are initially being a bit cautious about how many will be available - wise given that none have turned a wheel in passenger service anywhere yet!  That might also account for the unaccounted Turbos in that they will be used to cover any initial shortfall, and might mean more Turbos can be released after the timetable has commenced and all of the 769s are all available.

I don't know about actual timings of the trains and how they connect as yet.

[SandTEngineer]

II.  Do you have any idea how much 'white space' into/out of Paddington there will be in each timetable hour?  It looks to me that things are going to rotate on a 15 minute cycle which won't give any room for late running etc.  I think the WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) 20 minute cycle is a much better prospect.  Surely 3 trains an hour to Bristol at 20 minute intervals would be sufficient, for example.

[IndustryInsider]

Nothing definite at the moment, S&T^▸ (Signalling and Telegraph), as it's all in the hands of NR^» (Network Rail - home page) for validation, but  GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) want off-peak fast departures at xx:00, 03, 07, 15, 18, 20, 30, 33, 37, 45, 48, 50.  The xx:20/50 stop at Slough, everything else is fast to Reading.  You also have to fit in the four HEx services as well which will presumably be xx:10, 25, 40, 55.  Then of course there's the open access bid if it got approval, and the odd extra one a peak times!  It's going to be tight.

[SandTEngineer]

Thanks II.  Personally I don't think it will ever work successfully, day in, day out.  One slight delay and the whole timetable will collapse.  Hope GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) have good contingency planners and a robust recovery plan.....

[Celestial]

Nothing definite at the moment, S&T^▸ (Signalling and Telegraph), as it's all in the hands of NR^» (Network Rail - home page) for validation, but  GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) want off-peak fast departures at xx:00, 03, 07, 15, 18, 20, 30, 33, 37, 45, 48, 50.  The xx:20/50 stop at Slough, everything else is fast to Reading.  You also have to fit in the four HEx services as well which will presumably be xx:10, 25, 40, 55.  Then of course there's the open access bid if it got approval, and the odd extra one a peak times!  It's going to be tight.

I can see it might just work heading out of London, as you would hope most trains leave Paddington on time.But surely there is no chance going eastwards, when trains will be at the end of their journeys, and much more likely to be running even a couple of minutes late.

[grahame]

Nothing definite at the moment, S&T^▸ (Signalling and Telegraph), as it's all in the hands of NR^» (Network Rail - home page) for validation, but  GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) want off-peak fast departures at xx:00, 03, 07, 15, 18, 20, 30, 33, 37, 45, 48, 50.  The xx:20/50 stop at Slough, everything else is fast to Reading.  You also have to fit in the four HEx services as well which will presumably be xx:10, 25, 40, 55.  Then of course there's the open access bid if it got approval, and the odd extra one a peak times!  It's going to be tight.

I can see it might just work heading out of London, as you would hope most trains leave Paddington on time.But surely there is no chance going eastwards, when trains will be at the end of their journeys, and much more likely to be running even a couple of minutes late.

Some of the existing inbound trains have a few minutes of 'recovery time' built in ... with multiple platforms at Reading the trains can be lines up / fired off towards London even if they're slightly erratic in their arrival there and  with a couple of fudge minutes they won't be too far out when they arrive.   How often do you check your watch as you get in to Paddington and have you noticed that at times you're a few minutes early.

You can see, though , from Recent Train Times graphs, just how long it takes for delays to work back from sequential train. See attachment.

[eightonedee]

There are expected to be 8 Class 769 daily diagrams, which will be the North Downs services.  There are plans to also use them on some of the Thames Valley branches, though perhaps they are initially being a bit cautious about how many will be available - wise given that none have turned a wheel in passenger service anywhere yet!  That might also account for the unaccounted Turbos in that they will be used to cover any initial shortfall, and might mean more Turbos can be released after the timetable has commenced and all of the 769s are all available.

I don't know about actual timings of the trains and how they connect as yet.

Thanks II - looks like I am going to have to keep my fingers crossed for quite  while yet!

[Celestial]

Nothing definite at the moment, S&T^▸ (Signalling and Telegraph), as it's all in the hands of NR^» (Network Rail - home page) for validation, but  GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) want off-peak fast departures at xx:00, 03, 07, 15, 18, 20, 30, 33, 37, 45, 48, 50.  The xx:20/50 stop at Slough, everything else is fast to Reading.  You also have to fit in the four HEx services as well which will presumably be xx:10, 25, 40, 55.  Then of course there's the open access bid if it got approval, and the odd extra one a peak times!  It's going to be tight.

I can see it might just work heading out of London, as you would hope most trains leave Paddington on time.But surely there is no chance going eastwards, when trains will be at the end of their journeys, and much more likely to be running even a couple of minutes late.

Some of the existing inbound trains have a few minutes of 'recovery time' built in ... with multiple platforms at Reading the trains can be lines up / fired off towards London even if they're slightly erratic in their arrival there and  with a couple of fudge minutes they won't be too far out when they arrive.   How often do you check your watch as you get in to Paddington and have you noticed that at times you're a few minutes early.

You can see, though , from Recent Train Times graphs, just how long it takes for delays to work back from sequential train. See attachment.

I'm not sure I understand that graph I'm afraid, but not to worry.  I do know that Airport Junction often results in a delay heading into London, presumably because of a Heathrow Express train going first. But them I'm not a regular traveller so that might just be bad luck.

[SandTEngineer]

No, you have not been unlucky.  In the Up direction the Signalling System ARS^▸ (Automatic Route Setting) routes trains at Airport Junction dependent on them 'striking in' on fixed signalling sections on the approach, with the system designed to give a green signal aspect sequence to trains where possible.  Its very much a 'First Come First Served' (FCFS) system.

On Open Train Times signalling map http://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/gwml2 you can watch this happening hour after hour, day after day.  Completely stuffs the GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) services when a HE train is routed out moments ahead of a GWR service.  If I had my way I would relegate all Heathrow services to the Relief Lines as really they are about frequency rather than speed.

[Adrian]

Do we have any information yet about what the departure/arrival times will look like at the Bristol / Cardiff ends?  I'm mainly interested in how the new HSS^▸ (High Speed Services) timings will require the Cardiff - Portsmouth and Cardiff - Taunton services to shuffle around them.

[IndustryInsider]

Subject to NR^» (Network Rail - home page) validation, from Cardiff the Taunton (with some now going beyond) departures are at xx:00, and the Portsmouth's around xx:30.  The two London trains are generally at xx:19 and xx:47.  So quite a spread compared with now where the Portsmouth and Cardiff services leave only a few minutes behind a London departure.

[grahame]

If anyone has any extra details, or questions, then shout them out!

Following up on IndustryInsider's excellent initial summary, as invited I am filling in from some (but very patchy) knowledge. 

Overview ... many improvement as already outlined on London services - faster, extra, etc.  Some really good improvements in Devon and Cornwall too.  Parts of the in-between feel like a bit of a no-man's land where changes are few, and those changes that are being made largely reflect the need to interwork with new faster and more frequent IET^▸ (Intercity Express Train) services.  I am short on weekend information - the following reflects Monday to Friday.

CARDIFF / BRISTOL to PORTSMOUTH
Little change to timetable, though by 2020 we should be up to 5 carriages on all daytime diagrams.

CARDIFF / BRISTOL to TAUNTON
Broadly uchanged pattern.  Some changes in extensions of London services to Bristol - which go on to Weston-super-mare or Taunton, and which start back there.  Concern that a couple of crowd-buster London trains into Bristol in the morning peak are moved, for example. Hard to tell if this is a real problem as I don't know (nor do Severnside CRP^▸ (Community Rail Partnership) who raised the concern) as there may be Cross Country changes to fill the gaps.

SEVERN BEACH
Basically still a 40 minute service.  Proposals to drop some Sea Mills calls in the earlier draft have been reversed; some more extensions from Avonmouth to Severn Beach(?). Very long mid-eveing gap remains.

BRISTOL to WEYMOUTH
Very little change as far as I can tell - varying gaps between 1 hour and 3 hours on trains into Weymouth. No Heart of Wessex rep at the meeting which looked at central area services; they are between Community Rail Officers, Catherine sorely missed!

BRIGHTON
Very little change. Plan is for 165/166 to be able to run along the coast, replacing 158s usd at present.

SWINDON To WESTBURY
Significant retiming due to pathing issues (old paths used by retimed and new trains). Previous extra return service in middle of the day (above the SLC^▸ (Service Level Commitment)) withdrawn - overall result, longer gaps (e.g. 07:50 to 10:20 Melksham to Swindon). New 05:18 service Westbury to Swindon. No extra late evening service being provided.  Connections at Westbury random - a few improvements, but some well established flows broken.

BRISTOL to SWINDON (local traffic)
Daytime services remain 2 per hour calling at Bath Spa and Chippenham. Peak, a third train added Bristol - Bath - Chippenham but then non-stop to Paddington, resulting in 40 minute gaps in and out of Swindon as against current 30 minute gaps.  Extra morning peak service from Bristol to Swindon no longer runs.

Evening services off Bristol now evened out to being hourly (long gap gone) but last service at 22:40 (currently 22:35) still too early for leisure traffic.

WESTBURY to SOUTHAMPTON (local services)
Very little changed. Some services which previously connected well at Westbury from the South West no longer connect.

BRISTOL to GREAT MALVERN
Not aware of any major changes, or comments that suggest changes.