Some ticketing issues from a station without a staffed ticket office.

[whole diary]

[grahame]

Following up from a thread on Oxford Evening Out tickets that brought us back to some more general issues

... That said, I wonder if it would still encounter the ticket machine problem. The TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) at Charlbury still won't suggest a Super Off-Peak Return to Paddington at the appropriate hours. Last time we discussed this, ChrisB observed that "presently, it only has two settings - peak & off-peak (whatever time that is at the station location of the TVM) - thus can't cope with the valid time of the super off-peak, nor that evening out ticket". ...

Melksham Station - what the ticket machine sells and other concerns.

Noting ... these issues are not (all) unique to Melksham; this thread follows on from a thread referring to Charlbury. Please add other examples to this thread as there may be widespread / systemic issues involved

1. The ticket machine has London (Paddington) return tickets on the front screen - offering these tickets (all period returns) at £177.00 (any time tickets) during the morning peak on Mondays to Fridays, and at £74.60 (off peak tickets) at all other times. A super off peak ticket is also available at £56.00 via a secondary menu, though having seen "Off Peak Return" on the front menu, passengers who are not familiar with rail travel are unlikely to realise that there may be a lower cost option.

The Super Off Peak ticket (the cheaper one on the secondary menu) is valid on all trains to London via Swindon except the 07:20 and 07:49, both of which require an ay time ticket.  There are no services at all from Melksham to London on which an off peak, but not a super off peak is valid, unless you break your journey in Swindon overnight.

The Super Off Peak ticket is also valid on ALL trains back from London on Saturdays, Sundays and Bank Holidays. It is also valid back from London on trains at 11:45 12:30 14:15 on Monday to Friday, and at 19:12 on Monday to Thursday. Anytime tickets are required from London to Melksham on the 07:45 and 17:45 Monday to Friday, and Off Peak tickets (rather than Super off peak) are required on the 09:45, 16:30 Monday to Friday, and on the 19:00 on Friday.

Melksham to London is about a 90 minute journey, with day trips being common place. I would suggest that on a Saturday and Sunday most people are likely to be coming back the same day, and that the £56.00 ticket should be offered on the front menu and not the £74.60 ticket - the chance that a person travelling to London on a Saturday morning will be coming back at 09:45 or 16:30 during the following week is pretty darned slim.  I would also suggest that on a Monday to Thursday morning after the morning peak, the £56.00 ticket should be offered - it's far more likely that the person will be returning at 19:12 or in the middle of a following day than at 09:45 or 16:30 (16:30 possible, but that's a short London trip!).

As I understand it, rules do not require ticket machines to offer all tickets, nor offer the most likely to be best value on their front panel - but it feels slightly "dirty" to me to promote a product that's £18.60 more expensive than most people are likely to want on a Saturday over and above the best value ticket.  It feels even dirtier because it's far from clear to rail newbies that there's likely to be a hidden lower price option, and because there's no definition that I've found in the machine that tells you which fares apply to which specific trains - just a general statement on both off peak and super off peak that they're not valid on peak trains.

2. The printed B5 timetable (download via https://www.gwr.com/plan-journey/train-times), and the official timetable published by the TransWIlts CRP^▸ (Community Rail Partnership) ( https://www.transwilts.org/images/11874-TransWilts-TransWilts-2019-Timetable-DL-Leaflet_LR.pdf ) both suggest a London (Paddington) departure at 19:00 to connect at Chippenham with the 20:23 from there to Melksham as being the last train 'home' at night.  That is an off peak fare - £74.60 return if you want up on any train except the 07:20 or 07:49. The journey planner, however, offers you the 19:12 off Paddington on Mondays to Thursdays, change at Swindon, at a fare of £56.00

3. A new poster has appeared at Melksham (same poster at Trowbridge) talking of penalty fare rules from 1st April 2019.
"You will need to your ticket before you board to avoid being issued with a Penalty Fare" and "If ticket selling facilities are not available where you board, you will be given the opportunity to purchase a ticket on board".  The machine at Melksham does not take cash, does not sell groupsaves nor rangers or rovers, does not offer excesses.  It does not accept Rail Warrants or Rail Travel Vouchers.  And as you've seen from above, information at the machine is sometimes far from clear as to exactly what ticket applies to you.   

As stated, these rules say that you'll no longer be able to travel from Melksham and pay in cash for your journey as from the start of next month.  That's the biggest concern element here - a number of our users are young or don't have "plastic" or mobile phones with credit for other reasons, and for cash payment to be withdrawn in favour of penalising them seems harsh; I suspect in practise the train manager would sell a ticket for cash, or a groupsave ... but the vulnerable feel threatened.  Happy for those who are trying to beat the system to be penaltied, but not for the system to "milk" those who've had no choice.


OK - the above looks a bit negative.  How about some suggestions for GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway)

1. Switch the Melksham machine to offering Anytime (£177) and Super Off Peak (£56) London tickets on the front menu. Add definitions of what "Off Peak" and "Super Off Peak" actually mean in place of the current duplicated and generalised text. This will save many un-savvy passengers paying £18.60 more than they need.

2. Update (correct) the printed B5 timetable, the TransWilts printed timetable, and the online .pdf versions of both (and any other publications!) to show the 19:12 train. As the incorrect information has been provided by GWR and TransWilts for several months, it might be a good and positive idea to do a promotion - "later train back - lower fare".  This will allow un-savvy passenger who didn't know about the 19:12 to save money - very often £18.60

3. Update the penalty fare notice to read "If ticket selling facilities to sell you the ticket you need using the payment method you'll be using, or if it's unclear which is the right ticket for you from the ticket machine, please ask a member of staff on board who will give you the opportunity to purchase your ticket".  Inform staff of the change and ensure that the (very few) who get shirty when selling a ticket not available via the TVM with the payment method available are reminded not to be shirty!   This will re-assure vulnerable passenger and help ensure they're not put off using the train.

[ChrisB]

THis is NOT a GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) problem, it's a national problem that can only be solved by a rewrite of the TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) software across the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) - so a Rail Delivery Group (ex-ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies See - here)) problem. And the cost is in 7 figures, as this may require an upgrade to the hardware in the TVMs for a much larger software program.

Franky, talking personally, the whole program needs rewriting, requiring the pasenger not only to select their arrival station, but also selecting outward & return train times so to allow the program to dispay the cheapest fare for that selection - and also an option for 'flexible' on both outward & return times if you don't want to choose a particular service, or don't know.

Doing that, plus a calendar to select forward dates would allow Advances to also be sold by interogation of that database to chjeck availability. If one is going for a rewrite, it may as well be the full bells & whistles!

But until the fares review is complete, there would be no point in starting this project!

So, in the meantime, get suggestions into this review to encourage this project....

btw -

As stated, these rules say that you'll no longer be able to travel from Melksham and pay in cash for your journey as from the start of next month.

is ann incorrect understanding of

"You will need to your ticket before you board to avoid being issued with a Penalty Fare" and "If ticket selling facilities are not available where you board, you will be given the opportunity to purchase a ticket on board".

If the TVM doesn't take cash, and that uis the method by which you want to pay (and have the cash on your person to do so), then the facilities to buy are *not* available, thus you would be given the opportunity to buy onboard.

[grahame]

THis is NOT a GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) problem, it's a national problem that can only be solved by a rewrite of the TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) software across the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) - so a Rail Delivery Group (ex-ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies See - here)) problem. And the cost is in 7 figures, as this may require an upgrade to the hardware in the TVMs for a much larger software program.

I take it that's in answer to my point no. 1.   I am aware of the "two time zones only" issue that the rail industry has - is it really impossible to sell the super off peak ticket from the front screen at all times that the off peak is currently sold without spending seven figure sum?  Just swapping two tickets around! Bearing in mind there is not a single service from Melksham to London on which the off peak is valid but the super off peak is not!

Point No. 2 - GWR's printed B5 timetable error ... showing 19:00 (Off Peak) rather than 19:12 (Super Off Peak) - does not relate to TVM / not sure how it's anyone's problem other than GWR's. I have considerable sympathy with TransWilts who I suspect took their data from GWR in good faith and didn't check it.

Point No.3 - Wouldn't it be so much better to use clear an unambiguous wording.  It says "ticket selling facilities" on the notice as it stands and not "facilities to sell the ticket you want using your chosen method of payment".  Don't see that as being an RDG^‡(resolve) / ATOC problem to change the wording either!

I do agree it would be a good idea to have a major update of the software, and that be after we know how the fare system will be structured for a few years. Care needs to be taken to ensure the process isn't slowed right down for the people who just want to grab a quick local ticket from the moist common menu ...

[ChrisB]

Every station's time for super-off-peak will be different unfortunately - and the software is common to all TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) of that type - so yes, a national issue, rather than a TVM by TVM issue. And no, there is no current way of just updating one TVM - they all are done at the same time.

It's sufficient of a major upgrade that 'they' wouldn't simply address the one issue you have identified, but address them all in one go.

And dependent on the fares review. If major changes come from that, it may be a driver to update the TVM software underwritten by the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about).

Re your points 2 & 3....I didn't address those. Is your local draft timetable being proof read by Transwilts? Rob on the Hill might be able to sort that if they aren't....

[grahame]

Every station's time for super-off-peak will be different unfortunately - and the software is common to all TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) of that type - so yes, a national issue, rather than a TVM by TVM issue. And no, there is no current way of just updating one TVM - they all are done at the same time.

OK - I'll tell people that it would cost a million quid to swap two tickets around!

Re your points 2 & 3....I didn't address those. Is your local draft timetable being proof read by Transwilts? Rob on the Hill might be able to sort that if they aren't ...

On point 2, I'm not sure about the draft these days / whether or not a copy goes to Transwilts to check it. Whatever happens, the 19:12 super off peak departure from London is missing from GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway)'s printed B5 and .pdf timetable (as well as the TransWilts one).

Odd about not addressing point 3 - I thought this was your answer 

As stated, these rules say that you'll no longer be able to travel from Melksham and pay in cash for your journey as from the start of next month.

is ann incorrect understanding of

"You will need to your ticket before you board to avoid being issued with a Penalty Fare" and "If ticket selling facilities are not available where you board, you will be given the opportunity to purchase a ticket on board".

If the TVM doesn't take cash, and that uis the method by which you want to pay (and have the cash on your person to do so), then the facilities to buy are *not* available, thus you would be given the opportunity to buy onboard.

[ChrisB]

Every station's time for super-off-peak will be different unfortunately - and the software is common to all TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) of that type - so yes, a national issue, rather than a TVM by TVM issue. And no, there is no current way of just updating one TVM - they all are done at the same time.

OK - I'll tell people that it would cost a million quid to swap two tickets around!

They could show the sOP fare at OP^▸ (Original Poster / topic starter) time, but then people would use the SOP^▸ (Standard Operating Instructions) fares too early. It really is part of the fares review - maybe the recommendation will be for simply 'peak' and 'off-peak', with possibly 'Advance' fares available online as know. That would sort your problem at a stroke.

[grahame]

They could show the sOP fare at OP^▸ (Original Poster / topic starter) time, but then people would use the SOP^▸ (Standard Operating Instructions) fares to early.

How?   The 07:49 is "Anytime" and the next train at 10:02 is Super Off Peak ... there are no off peak trains.  And that gap is slated to get even longer come the December 2019 timetable.

I have made my suggestion here very, very carefully to avoid replacing one problem by another, and to avoid coming up with a fix that has a limited shelf life.  I would love to have the 'problem' of another train in between.

[ChrisB]

sorry, add "....at other stations", so it should have read "They could show the sOP fare at OP^▸ (Original Poster / topic starter) time, but then people would use the SOP^▸ (Standard Operating Instructions) fares too early at other stations" - as the change would have to be universal, across all TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine).

[bobm]

Doing that, plus a calendar to select forward dates would allow Advances to also be sold by interogation of that database to chjeck availability. If one is going for a rewrite, it may as well be the full bells & whistles!

At a station with only one or two TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) I am not sure that would be welcomed.   I can see a queue of commuters building while someone goes through the various screens picking days and trains to travel on.

[ChrisB]

Hmmm, I can see your point, Bob. Yup, keep 'em online!

[plymothian]

[...] maybe the recommendation will be for simply 'peak' and 'off-peak', with possibly 'Advance' fares available online as know [...]

Officially there are currently, since the last National Rail simplification, only 3 ticket designations - Anytime, Off Peak and Advance.  Super Off Peak is a subset of Off Peak, not a designation in its own right. 

This is why you have a programmable peak and off peak time (but only 1 flat off peak time say 09.30 when ALL off peak tickets will show or be allowed through a gateline).

[JayMac]

This IS a GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) issue. They are the retailer. They are the party that contracts with the customer. They are the ones responsible for overcharging.

If you buy any other product or service in any other retailer/customer transaction, and it's faulty, not as described, not provided with reasonable care or skill, or you are overcharged, then the party that has to remedy the problem is the one you gave your money too. There is no contractual relationship between the customer and the maker/programmer of the ticket machine.

Whether or not it's a '7 figure' cost for the industry to rectify is neither here nor there. GWR should not be ovecharging.

Until the problem is fixed they, and other TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company), should be forced to sell the cheaper Super Off Peak tickets only, allowing them to be valid at Off Peak times. You'd be amazed how quickly the problem would be fixed if TOCs were forced to do that.

Alternatively, a Consumer Act court case or three may focus minds.

[ChrisB]

No it wouldn't....as they have no legal need to retail all tickets via TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine), itvwouod simply redult in that SOP^▸ (Standard Operating Instructions) fare being removed. It might also mean that the Penalty Fare regime be removed too. But GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) can't solve the problem *on their own*

[Trowres]

The National Rail website has a link to an interesting Code of Practice:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/static/documents/content/RetailInformationForRailTicketsCoP.PDF

As a designated enforcer of consumer law under Part 8 of the Enterprise Act 2002, the Office of Rail Regulation has the power to take action in relation to breaches of certain pieces of consumer law, including the CPRs. Therefore, to the extent that the Code represents the requirements of the CPRs, non-compliance with the Code may signal failure to comply with the CPRs and ORR^» (Office of Rail and Road formerly Office of Rail Regulation - about) may take action to ensure compliance, in line with its published guidance

CPR=Consumer Protection Regulations

[JayMac]

No it wouldn't....as they have no legal need to retail all tickets via TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine), itvwouod simply redult in that SOP^▸ (Standard Operating Instructions) fare being removed. It might also mean that the Penalty Fare regime be removed too. But GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) can't solve the problem *on their own*

Indeed. They are already being customer unfriendly, so removing from sale the cheaper fare would be true to form. Just the sort of contemptuous action to be expected.