New Station for Shepton Mallet?

[whole diary]

[grahame]

Oxford and Cambridge could be expected to generate a significant number of journeys from one to the other (and from both to London, the three together supposedly making the golden triangle that will rescue the whole country) as they're centres of similar types of economy. Is the same true of Bristol/Bath and Bournemouth/Poole? Maybe, I don't know.

Yes, they're not the same - the main similarity is that they were once connected by cross-country routes with moderate traffic levels. However:

• A Bristol - Bournemouth route would link WECA^» (West of England Combined Authority - about)'s a population of around 900,000 with BCP's 380,000. For comparison, Oxford has 240,000 and Cambridge 280,000.
• Bournemouth, like Bristol, has a strong financial service sector and (I will admit that I am surprised to read) a thriving youth culture. Unlike Bristol, it has poor transport links with its hinterland.

Who's for 'Western Powerhouse Rail'?

The models for the North and the Midlands are indeed being rolled out across the rest of England.  Problem (in my view) is that we're likely to end up with too many of them meeting in our patch; services that cross areas are likely to be more complex to arrange and generate less interest from the 'powerhouse' boards than those contained within a single 'powerhouse'.

South West Peninsular (includes Shepton Mallet where this thread starts - and St Austell)
Western Gateway (includes Bristol)
England's Economic Heartland (includes Swindon - and Cambridge)
Transport for the South East (includes Southampton - and Sheerness)

A couple of attachments - one showing a fifth area (including Bournemouth) and the other showing the Western Gateway comprising a main area and an isolated island which in transport terms seems very peculiar.

[Red Squirrel]

The first map, with BCP in an exclave of Western Gateway reminiscent of English Maelor, may indicate that it's not just me thinking that Bournemouth gravitates towards WECA^» (West of England Combined Authority - about)...

[grahame]

The first map, with BCP in an exclave of Western Gateway reminiscent of English Maelor, may indicate that it's not just me thinking that Bournemouth gravitates towards WECA^» (West of England Combined Authority - about)...

Sadly leads to all sorts of quirks and jokes .. "Western Gateposts" with traffic from the south east sneaking in to the south west along the Ringwood corridor clse to the Bournemouth Redoubt.   I recall "Part of Flint" on old county maps, hearing about Port Roberts and that Doncaster is part of Scotalnd - I really hope we don't end up trying to build our future on fragmented oddities.

[Bmblbzzz]

Which is all interesting, but the question remains, how many people want to travel from Bristol to Bournemouth or vice versa? There must be figures for ticket sales on rail and bus, perhaps harder to estimate car traffic. Of course there are all the inbetween places to factor in as well; Shepton Mallet might be a destination in itself, for outlets (and maybe the Babycham!)

[grahame]

Which is all interesting, but the question remains, how many people want to travel from Bristol to Bournemouth or vice versa? There must be figures for ticket sales on rail and bus ...

I'm sure there are figures - but it's a s***ing awful journey by rail from 'here' (Melksham) - more or less half way along the corridor - to the extent that even those of us who are pro-public-transport tend to drive.

Melksham to Southampton - off peak day return £24.20, by road 53 miles, 85 minutes
Melksham to Bournemouth - off peak return (no day returns) £44.20, by road 60 miles, 100 minutes

[bradshaw]

There is a good reference book that debates the closures and looks at whether routes could be opened. The S & D is on p52.

‘Disconnected’ - broken links in Britain’s rail policy by Chris Austin and Richard Faulkner OPC 2015

[eightonedee]

Problem (in my view) is that we're likely to end up with too many of them meeting in our patch; services that cross areas are likely to be more complex to arrange and generate less interest from the 'powerhouse' boards than those contained within a single 'powerhouse'.

South West Peninsular (includes Shepton Mallet where this thread starts - and St Austell)
Western Gateway (includes Bristol)
England's Economic Heartland (includes Swindon - and Cambridge)
Transport for the South East (includes Southampton - and Sheerness)

A couple of attachments - one showing a fifth area (including Bournemouth) and the other showing the Western Gateway comprising a main area and an isolated island which in transport terms seems very peculiar.

Absolutely - it makes no sense (for example) to put Berks and Oxon into two different areas. There is too much compartmentalisation creeping into transport policy - the CaMKOx corridor is another example. Someone needs to ensure that the national network works and connects. There is no point in splitting the Thames Valley apart, nor (for example) South Yorkshire, Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire. Networks not slogans!

[Bmblbzzz]

Which is all interesting, but the question remains, how many people want to travel from Bristol to Bournemouth or vice versa? There must be figures for ticket sales on rail and bus ...

I'm sure there are figures - but it's a s***ing awful journey by rail from 'here' (Melksham) - more or less half way along the corridor - to the extent that even those of us who are pro-public-transport tend to drive.

Melksham to Southampton - off peak day return £24.20, by road 53 miles, 85 minutes
Melksham to Bournemouth - off peak return (no day returns) £44.20, by road 60 miles, 100 minutes

From Bristol I'm seeing £43.10 off-peak return, £48.90 anytime, which seems less variation than on many routes. Although for the 0600 arriving 0915 they want £254.  Two and a half to three hours, quite a bit of which is spent waiting at Southampton. Does anyone want to estimate a journey time on a resurrected S&D^▸ (Somerset and Dorset Joint Railway) or similar?

[grahame]

To the south of Bristol and Bath is the hilly Mendip country - never as developed as the valley of the Avon which passes through Bristol and Bath, but never the less of sufficient importance for three railway lines to have penetrated the terrain - south from Yatton via Winscombe, south from Bristol viaPensford, and south from Bath via Midford.  Alas, all three were "middle of the road" lines - sufficient to be built, but insufficient to survive the ravages of the "Beeching Axe" era.  Today, if you want to head south from Bristol you head west then south via Weston-super-mare to Taunton, and if you want to head south from Bath you head east before turning south east via Trowbridge to Westbury.  And the great wedge of land in between has no rail transport.  But that great wedge of land is home to a number of communities - some substantial in size - which look towards Bristol and Bath as their regional centres, and the questions are asked "could we be (re)connected to the rail network" and "could we have passenger trains".

So where are the population / (rail) travel potential hot spots in the wedge?
Shepton Mallet * Radstock / Midsomer Norton * Wells * Glastonbury * Street * Cheddar * Bristol Airport * Whitchurch / Pensford * Blagdon

If you consider services through the wedge, there's other hotspots on the southern fringe (at or beyond the east - west line from Westbury to Taunton) who have significant desires for excellent and more direct travel opportunities to Bristol and Bath:
Frome * Wincanton * Yeovil * Blandford Forum * Ringwood * Somerton / Langport

Looking right down towards the South Coat, you have two further east-west lines - the Salisbury to Exeter line, and then the main line along the coast from Southampton in the east to Weymouth in the west - but again little in between so that rail journeys to the north are doglegs at the best from:
Poole * Bournemouth * Christchurch * Swanage * Lymington
All rail connected for sure but, as I wrote to someone yesterday, "Bournemouth - I would drive"





* None of the three lines I mentioned earlier could be trivially re-opened along its previous route.

* Other old lines in the area might be re-opened to passenger trains slighly more easily, but might not go the right places.

* Heavy / complex engineering may be easier but very pricey these days; gradients are not the big problem to trains they once were

* The potential travel hotspots to Bath / Bristol that I mentioned do not fall into a neat line

* Other traffics even beyond the area mentioned might be useful - for example Southampton port traffic

* Providing stations / link lines to the Westbury - Taunton line for towns close to it wouldn't give a quick direct journey to the desired locations of Bath / Bristol

* There isn't a single commuter service from Westbury / Frome / Bruton / Castle Cary into Taunton which may be indicative of the lack of traffic in that direction (but, yes, I don't know what the latent demand is)

* Bringing a new line into Bath could lead to capacity issues on the remaining Bristol to Bath line as many people would be headed for Bristol

* As we move to(wards) Sub-regional transport bodies like "Transport for the North", the area that we're talking about straddles borders

* There are few if any marginal constituencies between the two major parties in the area that would benefit from better connectivity

* An extra line heading south from the Bristol / Bath area would be unlikely to have through London services so not effect Westminster.

Posting this initially as an informing piece below the "Station for Shepton Mallet" thread ... happy to split the thread should that turn out to be wise.   Thank you to Richard Fairhust for his permsission to use his excellent Adlestrop Maps to illustrate this piece..  I have scaled the maps slighly for consistency with our formats - if you load the images in your browser though they'll be full size for you.

Throwing a stone in the pond I have described ...  Exisiting track Bristol Temple Meads, Bedminster, Parson Street, Long Ashton, Flax Bourton, New cut / tunnel Lulsgate, Blagdon, Cheddar Reopened Wookey, Wells, Shepton Mallet New curve to other line to reopen Cole Junction, Wincanton, Templecombe, Blandford, Broadstone, Poole. ... Stands back and expects alternative suggestions via the Radstock area, and around the north of Bournemouth.

[Red Squirrel]

Expanding on the idea of a though route based on the North Somerset from Bristol to Radstock, linked to the Somerset and Dorset to Bournemouth:

The first 25km from Bristol - Radstock would probably be largely single track with at best a line speed of 80km/h. There would be potential for an onward link to Frome here for local services (I'll leave it to others to speculate whether a Bristol - Frome service should terminate there or go further); such a local service would probably justify adding stops at Brislington, Whitchurch and Clutton. This section could potentially be opened as a first phase of the through route.

A 'fast' service on this section would presumably take around 20 mins; a stopper maybe 30 mins.

Norton - Bournemouth is 90km or thereabouts, and I'm guessing you'd probably want to stop all trains at Shepton Mallet, Cole/Castle Cary (some rerouting needed here), Templecombe, Sturminster Newton, Blandford and Poole. In BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) days, the line speed was 70mph (about 110km/h); would it be pollyannaish to think that a rebuilt line could sustain 140kh/m? if so, 90 minutes from Norton to Bournemouth ought to be achievable.

So let's say Bristol - Bournemouth could be achieved in around 1 hr 50 mins... that would be almost an hour quicker than the current rail journey, and 20 mins quicker than driving.

[eXPassenger]

This looks to me like the ultimate crayonista's dream.

Grahame's 'solution' of a line from Flax Bourton to Cheddar requires extensive tunnelling, a funicular or taking over the Cheddar Gorge.  Last Wednesday I ascended the S face of the Mendips there and it is STEEP.  There is lost trackbed through to Shepton.  I do not know how much trackbed has been lost from the S&D^▸ (Somerset and Dorset Joint Railway) to Poole.

Red Squirrel's suggestion will need to tunnel out of Bristol to Whitchurch due to all the developments on the trackbed.  It would also be necessary to include reversing time at Radstock when switching from the North Somerset to the S&D.

Do not forget the time it is taking to reopen the Portishead line which has an existing trackbed, much of which is used for freight.

[Red Squirrel]

Red Squirrel's suggestion will need to tunnel out of Bristol to Whitchurch due to all the developments on the trackbed.  It would also be necessary to include reversing time at Radstock when switching from the North Somerset to the S&D^▸ (Somerset and Dorset Joint Railway).

Whilst freely acknowledging that this is crayonism, I feel the need to point out that the bulk of the B&NS route out of Bristol is very much not built on - the 2.25km section running parallel to Sturminster Road, between West Town Lane and Staunton Lane, is clear; further in it would be possible to sidestep the development at Hither Bath Bridge (where the embankment has been removed) and there is also a fairly clear route along the old alignment, or close to it, from Brislington to, er, North Somerset Jct. The housing development on the trackbed at Whitchurch would be more problematic, but I would suggest that here a bulldozer would probably fit the bill better than a TBM.

As to Norton Radstock; I am suggesting a curve (and new station) near the BANES offices at Somerville Road/Radstock Road, rather than a reversal.

Crayons back in box.

[grahame]

This looks to me like the ultimate crayonista's dream.

Grahame's 'solution' of a line from Flax Bourton to Cheddar requires extensive tunnelling ...

Indeed.  I put that in as I was writing it.  But then trimmed back that part of the post and it got edited out.  Obviously unusual - does anyone know of any examples of where a railway line arrives underneath an airport in a tunnel ? 

[eXPassenger]

Red Squirrel's suggestion will need to tunnel out of Bristol to Whitchurch due to all the developments on the trackbed.  It would also be necessary to include reversing time at Radstock when switching from the North Somerset to the S&D^▸ (Somerset and Dorset Joint Railway).

Whilst freely acknowledging that this is crayonism, I feel the need to point out that the bulk of the B&NS route out of Bristol is very much not built on - the 2.25km section running parallel to Sturminster Road, between West Town Lane and Staunton Lane, is clear; further in it would be possible to sidestep the development at Hither Bath Bridge (where the embankment has been removed) and there is also a fairly clear route along the old alignment, or close to it, from Brislington to, er, North Somerset Jct. The housing development on the trackbed at Whitchurch would be more problematic, but I would suggest that here a bulldozer would probably fit the bill better than a TBM.

As to Norton Radstock; I am suggesting a curve (and new station) near the BANES offices at Somerville Road/Radstock Road, rather than a reversal.

Crayons back in box.

I agree that there are available sections, however the Northern start is now blocked by Avon Meads, the A4320 and a Sainsburys.  You then have the edge of a Tesco before the relatively clear section.

You could connect the lines through the BANES location.

[ellendune]

Indeed.  I put that in as I was writing it.  But then trimmed back that part of the post and it got edited out.  Obviously unusual - does anyone know of any examples of where a railway line arrives underneath an airport in a tunnel ? 

I think they have one at a small airport somewhere in West London!