Rail Delivery Group's Fair Fare consultation - outcome

[whole diary]

[Oxonhutch]

It would be interesting to see a graph of single 2nd/standard class single from Reading to London and compare that from the CPI graph below reproduced from http://www.in2013dollars.com/uk/inflation/1961?amount=100. I would like to see where the divergence is between rail fares and CPI.

Grahame's quote of 7/6 for 1961 is much less than the 9/- quoted by Didcotdean for 1965 given the small inflation figures in that period, which suggests that the RDG^‡(resolve)-PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) route was already charging more than 2.5d (or tuppence ha'penny) per mile. That price suggest a route of 43 miles - is this price based on the Southern route?

So today a RDG-PAD anytime single is £25.10 a 304% premium on the CPI calculated £8.25.  First class fare of £44.90 is a 79% premium over the standard fare - considerably larger than the 50% premium given in the image posted by Didcotdean - a 367% premium on a 1961 calculation.

I knew the railways were losing money in 1961 but they are not exactly in real profit today.

[Oxonhutch]

In parallel to the above, I distinctly remember listening to my dad from the backseat of his Triumph Herald (no rear seat belts of course) in 1966/7 moaning that petrol was now costing 5/- per gallon - that is 5.5p per litre in 1967 monies = 99p/L today.

[didcotdean]

Somewhere before I have located a resource that has kept the cost of various fares over the last 20 years or so but frustratingly I can't find it again right now. However, a Paddington-Reading single ticket in 1949 was 7/4, which suggests a long flat period for fares, although returns back then were not simply twice the fare - one valid for a month was 9/10.

[martyjon]

When I left school in 1961 and went to Slough to undertake a Sandwich Course sponsored by ICI the day return fare to Paddington was 2/6 (12.5p) which I took on many Saturdays/Sundays during my billetted time at Slough. A single to Bristol was 7/9 (38.75p) or 8/9 if one travelled via Paddington with a 2/6 (12.5p) supplement if one travelled in the luxury of The Blue Pullman (The Bristol Pullman) departing Paddington 5.45pm and scheduled to run non-stop to Bath Spa arriving at 7.20 pm and Bristol Temple Meads at 7.40pm. In comparison the express coach service provided by Bristol Greyhound/Royal Blue charged a period return fare of 4/6 (22 1/2p) which took about 4 hours with a 30 minute comfort break at Marlborough besides all the stops at Reading, Newbury, Hungerford, Calne, Chippenham. and Bath. There was no M4 in them days.

[martyjon]

When I passed my driving test and was able to persuade my father to let me use the family car PROVIDED I put something into the tank petrol was 2/6 (12 1/2p) per gallon. Two years on when I was the owner of my own vehicular transport and post the 1973 Middle East crisis petrol prices had risen somewhat, JET petrol had arrived on the scene and theirs was 4/- (20p) a gallon. Anybody reading this remember National Benzole, a fuel mix of petrol and benzene.

[4064ReadingAbbey]

When I passed my driving test and was able to persuade my father to let me use the family car PROVIDED I put something into the tank petrol was 2/6 (12 1/2p) per gallon. Two years on when I was the owner of my own vehicular transport and post the 1973 Middle East crisis petrol prices had risen somewhat, JET petrol had arrived on the scene and theirs was 4/- (20p) a gallon. Anybody reading this remember National Benzole, a fuel mix of petrol and benzene.

Yes! The garage near us sold it - and my father had an account there. Buying petrol on account...now that seems odd today!

[martyjon]

Yes! The garage near us sold it - and my father had an account there. Buying petrol on account...now that seems odd today!

Not quite, the credit card has replaced the garage account and in the end you still got to pay the bill.

[Western Pathfinder]

http://www.ukrestoration.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/IMG_2273-400x400.jpg
For those who are wondering what we are talking about.

[Bmblbzzz]

When I passed my driving test and was able to persuade my father to let me use the family car PROVIDED I put something into the tank petrol was 2/6 (12 1/2p) per gallon. Two years on when I was the owner of my own vehicular transport and post the 1973 Middle East crisis petrol prices had risen somewhat, JET petrol had arrived on the scene and theirs was 4/- (20p) a gallon. Anybody reading this remember National Benzole, a fuel mix of petrol and benzene.

Confused here. I wasn't quite old enough to use money in 1973 but didn't shillings get replaced in 1971? Were things really still priced in shillings post 1973?

[Reginald25]

When I passed my driving test and was able to persuade my father to let me use the family car PROVIDED I put something into the tank petrol was 2/6 (12 1/2p) per gallon. Two years on when I was the owner of my own vehicular transport and post the 1973 Middle East crisis petrol prices had risen somewhat, JET petrol had arrived on the scene and theirs was 4/- (20p) a gallon. Anybody reading this remember National Benzole, a fuel mix of petrol and benzene.

Confused here. I wasn't quite old enough to use money in 1973 but didn't shillings get replaced in 1971? Were things really still priced in shillings post 1973?

I am most certainly old enough to remember £, shillings & pence (even halfpennies and farthings). But the term 4 bob (4/- or 20p) was still in use for several years after, it took everyone a long term to forget the old money, as most of the coins were exactly the same (excepting a few oddities like the thruppence piece -just over 1p in today's money, and of course the penny itself). More to the point, given everything got repriced at the time, it provides a good memory jogger for how much things have gone up since then.

[JayMac]

http://www.ukrestoration.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/IMG_2273-400x400.jpg
For those who are wondering what we are talking about.

I'm a post decimalisation baby (although I've no idea what my height and weight are in new money) but I do remember National as a petrol station brand. My grandparents used to fill up in one and I remember getting collectable Smurfs merchandise. National used the Smurfs in their late 1970s ad campaigns.

[Robin Summerhill]

This is what a 1965 BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) WR timetable says about fares:


A single from London Paddington to Reading General was then 9/-

The example from the 1965 timetable is a little misleading, because what it doesn't say that the "return fare is double the single fare" only applied to Ordinary singles and returns. Singles had a three day validity and returns a three month validity for the return portions. "Ordinary" tickets were the latter day equivalent of today's Anytime tickets, although of course they have far shorter validities.

The change from a strict mileage-based system to selective pricing (ie. charging what the market will bear) happened c.1965 if my memory serves me well, so probably shortly after the timetable extract above appeared in print. The final fixed mileage rate was 3d (1.25 pence), by the way

But even back pre-1965 there was selective pricing on discounted tickets. The equivalent in those days of the off peak day return was the cheap day return, and those usually sold for only a few pence more than an ordinary single (cheap singles did exist but they were few and far between). There were also Special Excursion fares, which were in some cases cheaper than an ordinary single for a return journey. When I was in my early teens and unofficially “helped out” at Staple Hill station there was a day excursion to Paington that was cheaper than the single. When someone turned up one day and asked for a single to Paington (itself very unusual because almost all sales were to local stations between Bristol, Bath and Gloucester or Bournemouth and WSM) and was told to buy a return excursion in instead, he accused the leading porter on duty of trying to defraud his employers! (You’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t sometimes…)

 There were also Mid Week Returns for about two-thirds of the ordinary return fare. These allowed outbound travel on Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday of one week, returning on Tuesday Wednesday or Thursday of the following week. They weren’t on sale for more than 2 or 3 years because it was sussed out that regular travellers could effectively get a third off the full price of an ordinary return, by buying say, a midweek return from Bristol to Carlisle, then buying one from Carlisle to Bristol to come home the same week, then using both return portions the following week (the example quoted was actually done a couple of times by a friend of mine!!)

So as you see there is nothing particularly new about the fares pickle that we are in now, but it is also important to look at the wider issue to understand why we are in the pickle we are in. Whilst it is easy to decry the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) for only charging 10 pence more for a return than a single, it has always been done to stimulate demand – in essence they are giving the punter an almost free ride home for buying the return. If the leisure traveller were charged double the single price for a return they may not think of it as such a “bargain” and so might not travel at all.

Furthermore it is not just the railways that do this sort of thing. A long haul airline single ticket often costs more than a return – a lot more in some cases. Are they going to be targeted after the RDG^‡(resolve) has finished with the railways? Similarly, if you walk into Heathrow tomorrow morning and ask for a ticket on the next available flight to Glasgow, the price you’ll be asked for would be eye-watering compared to the fare you’d pay if you bought it a month before. And no-one is proposing to change that either.

No – all of our ultra-complicated fares structure has been built up over time to encourage off peak demand and, if it is changed unwisely to be “fairer” it may well stifle demand.

That is probably why the TOCs don’t really want to do anything about it, and the RDG need to be very wary indeed with their recommendations, for there will be winners and losers. And the winners won’t be grateful enough to spend any more money, whilst the losers might stop using the trains.

In truth this whole issue ought to have been left in the “too difficult to do” file. We’ll see what happens in the end.

[grahame]

... all of our ultra-complicated fares structure has been built up over time to encourage off peak demand and, if it is changed unwisely to be “fairer” it may well stifle demand.

That is probably why the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) don’t really want to do anything about it, and the RDG^‡(resolve) need to be very wary indeed with their recommendations, for there will be winners and losers. And the winners won’t be grateful enough to spend any more money, whilst the losers might stop using the trains.

In truth this whole issue ought to have been left in the “too difficult to do” file. We’ll see what happens in the end.

You are probably right in suggesting that a fairer system would cause significant problems ... however, time and again it's what the majority of people say they want.

From Rail Advent - headlines from a longer article

Fares must be prioritised… say passengers

A year on since the UKs^▸ (United Kingdom) biggest ever rail fares consultation opened, train passengers are still using an outdated fares system.

Passengers are now saying that the government shouls prioritise a fares reform and enable it to change as soon as possible.

81% of passengers think updates to the fares system should be prioritised by the independently chaired Williams Review looking at the whole rail system. This is according to an independent survey by Populus commissioned by the Rail Delivery Group.

The latest poll shows that passengers want to see change delivered quickly, with almost eight in 10 (77%) saying it is important that the government works with the rail industry to enable change within the next three to five years. This timeframe is especially important among commuters (79%) and people who take the train for business (80%).

The poll also found that among rail users:

* Only one in 10 (11%) feel the range of rail fares on offer always fits with their lifestyle and the way they want to travel, falling to just 5% of people who use the train for business.

* Six in 10 (60%) say rail fares always, often or sometimes feel too rigid so they have to fit their plans around them, rather than the other way around, which rises to two-thirds (67%) of part-time commuters and eight in 10 (80%) people who use the train for business.

* More than eight in 10 (85%) think it’s important that the fares system is updated to enable flexible workers to save money.

[ChrisB]

That was the resultys of a Transport Focus poll of just 2,000 passengers, extrapolated to fit the travelling public.

[grahame]

That was the resultys of a Transport Focus poll of just 2,000 passengers, extrapolated to fit the travelling public.

I actually have a lot of time for Transport Focus data, even when extrapolated and even knowing I have had a couple of robust discussions on sampling methods, some of which (probably because of other people asking the same thing) they have taken on board.

Just because changes might not be good for many people doesn't stop them wanting those changes and indeed pressing hard for them.  I know a number of people who are likely to be adversely effected by how / when / if we leave the EU^» (European Union - about), but are still passionately in favour of us leaving.