Rail Delivery Group's Fair Fare consultation - outcome

[whole diary]

[JayMac]

Where are you getting those Bournemouth to London fares from grahame? They don't tally with BRFares or SWR^» (South Western Railway - about)'s booking engine.

Anytime Return £118.00
Anytime Day Return £115.20
Off Peak Return £62.40
Off Peak Day Return £61.30
Super Off Peak Day Return £55.30
Weekend Super Off Peak Day Return £54.30

[grahame]

Where are you getting those Bournemouth to London fares from grahame? They don't tally with BRFares or SWR^» (South Western Railway - about)'s booking engine.

Anytime Return £118.00
Anytime Day Return £115.20
Off Peak Return £62.40
Off Peak Day Return £61.30
Super Off Peak Day Return £55.30
Weekend Super Off Peak Day Return £54.30

BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) Fares - http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=pad&dest=BMH ... just noticed "PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains)" - but it does say 'ticket issued to London terminals".   Have I found a fare that differs depending on which end you start at??

[JayMac]

You have.

Your post was comparing fares TO London, but for Bournemouth you used fares FROM London, which are considerably cheaper in that direction. A not uncommon thing with fares in the former Network SouthEast area.

[grahame]

You have.

Your post was comparing fares TO London, but for Bournemouth you used fares FROM London, which are considerably cheaper in that direction. A not uncommon thing with fares in the former Network SouthEast area.

Let's see how it looks the other way round:

-	Evesham	Chippenham	Bournemouth
7 day season	£218.10	£282.30	£173.60
anytime return	£83.00	£178.00	£61.60 £115.20 *
ratio	2.62	1.59	2.81 1.54
distance	100 miles	98 miles	107 miles
anytime ppm	41.5p	90.8p	28.8p 53.8p
season ppm	21.8p	28.8p	16.2p
off peak return	£71.10	£74.60	£57.00 £61.30
super off peak return	£53.40	£55.90	£50.50 & £55.30

I will go back and add a caution to the earlier post ...

[Robin Summerhill]

Thanks to Graham for giving us more information, especially on regulated and unregulated fares. I have to admit that this particular area is sometning I now little or nothing about.

One matter intrigued me, however. Graham quoted a 7 day season CPM^» (Chippenham - next trains) PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) to be £282.30. I used a figure of £250.70 which also appears on BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) fares as an option ( http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=cpm&dest=pad )

Can someone explain why these two figures appear, because on the face of it they seem to be offering the same thing?


PS - I've been meaning to respond to Mac's post about Templecombe to Exeter and Tiverton Parkway fares for a couple of days now, but I haven't yet got to it! And it is likely I won't be now because this year's 14 day all line rover starts in the morning and I'm off to Lincoln and Barnetby in a few hours, so time for bed

[Western Pathfinder]

Have a good trip Robin

[grahame]

One matter intrigued me, however. Graham quoted a 7 day season CPM^» (Chippenham - next trains) PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) to be £282.30. I used a figure of £250.70 which also appears on BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) fares as an option ( http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=cpm&dest=pad )

Can someone explain why these two figures appear, because on the face of it they seem to be offering the same thing?

You can buy a season for 1 week, or for any period from 1 to 12 months.  Longer odd periods are "pro rata"ed off the £250.70 week figure, with extra discount / holiday allowance off the annual one (and others??) to allow for holidays (bank ones and yours).   

£250.70 - Validity - Any period from 1 month to 12 months
£282.30 - Validity - 7 days

For examples (and to try this example) see http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/seasonticket/search




Enjoy your rover ... if you head for Retford after Barnetby - hope you get a seat!   I was on that train in the other direction last Saturday and - well - it was packed.  Conductor muttering that they should have given him something with more capacity than a 153 as he foresaw the problems getting everyone on along the way!

[TaplowGreen]

* “More than eight in 10 (85%) think it’s important that the fares system is updated to enable flexible workers to save money.”

Or in other words (as I read it) “we don’t want to pay peak rate fares and we want cheaper railway tickets.” Or, in some cases, “its not fair that I have to pay £100 for my peak return to Paddington when other people only pay £20 with an advance ticket, so we should both pay the same.

It's not just about peak rate fares.  There are also a lot of commuters who use the train 3 or 4 days a week and therefore can't take advantage of season ticket discounts.  And there are others who work night shift and so day returns don't suit them very well.

That's a very good point - the world of work is changing, fewer and fewer people work 9-5 and the railways should reflect this - a lot of people work flexibly and/or from home 1 or 2 days a week, a "loadable" season ticket which is on an Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) card type system and is valid for 30 days worth of trips rather than a calendar month would be a good step forward.

[Sixty3Closure]

* “More than eight in 10 (85%) think it’s important that the fares system is updated to enable flexible workers to save money.”

Or in other words (as I read it) “we don’t want to pay peak rate fares and we want cheaper railway tickets.” Or, in some cases, “its not fair that I have to pay £100 for my peak return to Paddington when other people only pay £20 with an advance ticket, so we should both pay the same.

It's not just about peak rate fares.  There are also a lot of commuters who use the train 3 or 4 days a week and therefore can't take advantage of season ticket discounts.  And there are others who work night shift and so day returns don't suit them very well.

That's a very good point - the world of work is changing, fewer and fewer people work 9-5 and the railways should reflect this - a lot of people work flexibly and/or from home 1 or 2 days a week, a "loadable" season ticket which is on an Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) card type system and is valid for 30 days worth of trips rather than a calendar month would be a good step forward.

As someone who worked nights for many years the travel costs were always a bit frustrating. Yes I could buy a season ticket but as I was always travelling against the general flow it never felt good value. I also worked 12 or 14 hour shifts which is a similar point to Taplow Green's about flexible working. And a purely self inflicted cost but it was always a faff buying tickets each night or in the morning when you're pretty much brain dead so I tended to play safe with a season.

In my current role my annual season is borderline value but often its the convenience of always having a ticket as well as not knowing what days I might be working that wins me over. While an Oyster card type system would be great for me I can't see what's in it for the train companies?

[CyclingSid]

Following on from somebodies passing comment about London Travelcard.Went up to London today and ended up on the bike one station outside Zone 6. £4.90 to go one station!

Did they used to do a wider London travelcard, out to Zone 8 or 9? Certainly not offered today.

[Adelante_CCT]

Zone 1-9 (along with numerous other zone options) still exist, but only cover certain areas outside zone 6 - most typically stations towards Amersham / Watford

[Robin Summerhill]

Enjoy your rover ... if you head for Retford after Barnetby - hope you get a seat!   I was on that train in the other direction last Saturday and - well - it was packed.  Conductor muttering that they should have given him something with more capacity than a 153 as he foresaw the problems getting everyone on along the way!

Thanks for explaining my season ticket conundrum.

As regards the rover (going off topic now ) I did Sheffield to Cleethorpes via Retford last year in a 2-car 143 where I got a seat because I started at the beginning of the journey, although there were plenty of seats available even on a hot Saturday in July (right in the middle of last year's heatwave).

Today's trip was Chippenham-Paddington-St Pancras-Nottingham (HST^▸ (High Speed Train))- Lincoln-Barnetby (lunch at the chip shop 200 yds from the station!)-Newark-KGX-Padd-Chippenham. 522 miles and just over 7p per mile if you divide the rail rover cost by 14!

Tomorrow is a shorter one - Okehampton if I make the 6-minute connection at EXD^» (Exeter St Davids - next trains) off the first train of the day going south west from Chippenham, or Totnes and the South Devon Railway if I don't!

I will resume my normal service on "Fares fair" when I get the chance 

_{(edited because I clearly don't know my Retfords from my Newarks...)}

[JayMac]

I've found my first fares anomaly from my new home village station, Templecombe.

Should I wish to make a day trip to Exeter, leaving on the 0925, the fare I'm expected to pay is the Off Peak Day Return at £27.70.

However, I can get an Off Peak Return to Tiverton Parkway (route: Via Exeter) for £25.30.

If were going to Exeter for an overnight stay and leaving Templecombe before 0900 (and/or returning before 0900) then the fare I'm expected to pay is the Anytime Return at £48.00.

An Anytime Return to Tiverton Parkway (route: Via Exeter) is £30.60. In fact that fare beats the Templecombe to Exeter Off Peak Return which is £31.50.

I know these anomalies have arisen due to who price the flows. For Templecombe to Exeter it's South Western Railway. For Templecombe to Tiverton Parkway its Great Western Railway.

And of course, the only 'fix' I'd like to see is one where the fares to Exeter become cheaper than those to Tiverton Parkway. Such a fix has revenue implications though, so best leave it be please, and I'll stick to buying tickets to Tiverton for trips to Exeter.

I've found a second (there will no doubt be more) anomaly in fares from Templecombe.

Templecombe <-> Melksham fares have two routeing options. Any Permitted or Via Salisbury. The only valid routeing point for such journeys, according to the National Routeing Guide, is Salisbury, so all journeys have to go that way.

The prices make little sense, with the Any Permitted being cheaper than Via Salisbury across the board.

TMC - MKM^» (Melksham (Station code) - next trains) Off Peak Return (Any Permitted) £21.50
TMC - MKM Off Peak Return (Via Salisbury) £30.50

Both those Off Peak Returns have the same restriction code, Q8.

[Trowres]

I've found a second (there will no doubt be more) anomaly in fares from Templecombe.

Templecombe <-> Melksham fares have two routeing options. Any Permitted or Via Salisbury. The only valid routeing point for such journeys, according to the National Routeing Guide, is Salisbury, so all journeys have to go that way.

The prices make little sense, with the Any Permitted being cheaper than Via Salisbury across the board.

TMC - MKM^» (Melksham (Station code) - next trains) Off Peak Return (Any Permitted) £21.50
TMC - MKM Off Peak Return (Via Salisbury) £30.50

Both those Off Peak Returns have the same restriction code, Q8.

I have found the probable explanation for that anomaly within the pages of old copies of the National Fares Manual. Consider:-

a) Melksham fares were listed as "use prices to/from Chippenham" except ... Templecombe
b) Sometime between 1991 and 2003 the Chippenham-Templecombe fares acquired the via Salisbury qualifier.
c) The hypothesis is that in creating the electronic fares database, an error was made and both the Chippenham fares and the correct Templecombe-Melksham fares were added.

Testing this, the Melksham-Templecombe via Salisbury fares should be the same as the Chippenham-Templecome fares. They are.

A point to note here is that the Any permitted tickets are the correct fare. Were they to disappear, it would be another example of a stealth rise in fare levels.

[Richard Fairhurst]

That's a very good point - the world of work is changing, fewer and fewer people work 9-5 and the railways should reflect this - a lot of people work flexibly and/or from home 1 or 2 days a week, a "loadable" season ticket which is on an Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) card type system and is valid for 30 days worth of trips rather than a calendar month would be a good step forward.

Exasperatingly GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) have known about a low-tech solution to this for a few years but haven't rolled it out.

In Cornwall and Devon, on selected routes, you can buy part-time season tickets: valid for three selected weekdays, plus weekends. The route section of the ticket says "MO TU WE &WKND" or whatever combination you buy it for. Here's a typical BRFares link.

But it's only available there, not across the whole GWR network. So part-timers (at least the ones I know) watch like a hawk for advances to become available on their working days, and then spend the evening in front of a computer booking as many as possible. This isn't a sensible solution for anyone.